Handicapping Your Shot At a Top Business School
The most common question MBA-wannabes are asking right now: “What are my chances of getting into a top-ranked business school?”
As would-be applicants pore over the raw stats and acceptance numbers of their dream schools, they’re sizing up their own odds of getting into a Harvard or Stanford, Columbia or Chicago, Kellogg or Tuck. And they’re making the inevitable calculations to answer the question: Should I invest the time and energy to apply this year?
Do you have what might be called “nosebleed stats” likely to open the doors to a top school? Or did you goof off during your undergrad years and worry about whether your work experience offsets your low GPA? Did your undergraduate degree get stamped at the right institution for an elite grad school? And do you work for a “sexy” or “dull” company that is not a feeder into the best business schools?
To handicap the odds for various candidates, we turned to Sanford “Sandy” Kreisberg, founder of MBA admissions consulting firm HBSGuru, and asked him to analyze a half dozen composite profiles of typical MBA applicants. (If you include your own stats and characteristics in the comments, we’ll pick six of them and have Kreisberg assess your chances in a follow-up feature.)
The odds assume a serviceable application and a not damaging interview—with or without the guidance of an admissions consultant. “Consultants can teach you how to stand up straight,” says Kreisberg. “They can teach you how to stand on your toes. But at the end of the day, they can’t make you taller. What consultants most often do is protect you from making damaging mistakes while making sure your core message is delivered. The schools themselves have evolved X-ray vision about what they are looking for, although they rarely reveal those traits fully.“
Indeed, as Kreisberg’s analysis on each composite profile will show below, the schools often apply different standards to different numbers and backgrounds.
Here’s his lowdown:
Mr. Perfect
- 750+ GMAT
- 3.8 Grade Point Average
- Ivy League Undergraduate Degree
- Work experience at Goldman Sachs or McKinsey & Co.
- Extracurricular includes alumni involvement and very active participation in an ethnic identity organization
Odds of Success
Harvard Business School: 85%
Stanford: 80%
Wharton: 90%
Tuck: 95%
Kellogg: 95%
Sandy’s Analysis: “The biggest risk this person has of not getting into HBS or Stanford is screwing up the interview, especially at HBS where the interview counts. (It does not count at Stanford in any meaningful way.) I am assuming the recommendations are in line and this applicant does not have a secret hater out there. HBS and Stanford, of course, love to reject kids like this, just so they can say they do. But they rarely do.
“Another danger, though rare, is just going a bit weird on the application through a combination of odd and unsupported goals, annoying and naïve enthusiasms, or just plain stupidity. Stanford could reject a kid like this if the ‘what matters most to you’ essay is a blatant and unreflective brag sheet.
“As to Wharton, Tuck and Kellogg, the issue is not blowing the interview and the related issue of convincing them that you are not using them as safety schools. If this kid really wants to go to Kellogg, he should apply very early. Otherwise, they will make the guess that the applicant is somehow toxic to Harvard, Stanford and Wharton.”
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Hi – I have 10 yrs work ex and done part time mba from IIM Bangalore. I wish to pursue a full time from HBS, Wharton or stanford. Does having an existing mba come in way of doing fulltime ? how is it seen by Top B schools. Any idea ?
GMAT of 730, GPA of 3.8 from a Midwestern state university, three years work experience as an auditor for a Big Four firm, will have three years experience for a large civil society NGO at the time of application. Extensive variety of extracurricular activities during undergrad (greek life, music, honors organizations, other student leadership positions); post-grad, volunteer regularly for a women’s health rights organization and have continued doing music for personal enjoyment. Already speak one foreign language fluently, am going back to school part-time in the fall to start learning a second foreign language (have been told I am gifted with languages and pick them up rather quickly). Looking to apply to INSEAD, HBS (preferably dual program with Kennedy), Booth, and Berkeley. What are my shots? What else can I do in the next couple of years to improve my chances (already plan to re-take GMAT, expecting to score higher)?
- 750 GMAT
- 3.5 Undergrad GPA – Mechanical Engineering – a state university in India
- 3.33 Grad School GPA – Mechanical Engineering – LSU
- 4 years of work experience @ SLB – world’s largest oil-field services company – as a Mechanical Engineer
- 1 year of work experience @ KLAC – leading semi-conductor capital equipment company – as a Product Engineer (2 years by the time I plan to apply)
- Extra curricular activities: Founder of website/discussion forum for Indian students aspiring for higher studies in the US, member @ current employer’s Toastmaster’s club, volunteer @ a local SFO Bay Area Indian entrepreneurship forum
- 30 year old Indian male
Philippines
750 GMAT
4.0/4.0 average Master of Mathematics (Business track)
4.0/4.0 average Master of Economics
2.2/4.0 GPA BS Chemistry
Went the entrepreneurial route and established a top 5 importation-based company in the Philippines.
GMAT: 730 AWA: 5.5
BS Comp Eng from UVA – 2.7
ME Sys Eng from UVA – 3.27
Work – 4 years large engineering contractor, 2 years start-up company, 2 years small engineering firm, several entrepreneurial efforts on the side
Extra – undergrad: none, after: company and alumni sports teams, fundraising for charity by participating in endurance sports (e.g. Marathon)
white male
I am aware I wasted my undergrad years, should I address that in the optional essays on all my applications? Is there any shot of a top school with such a low undergrad GPA even though I’ll be out of school for 9 years by the time I start my MBA?
770 GMAT
B.A. Economics from BYU (Provo) – 3.72
Minors in Business and Spanish
Work – 2 years with a fast-growing startup (am currently Director of Operations); will have 3 years experience by program start date
Extra – two-year service mission in Spain, Spanish language fluency, highest award at Model UN competition in New York, Eagle Scout
I’m a white male from a rural town in Idaho. None of my friends or family have, as far as Harvard is probably concerned, gone anywhere or done anything, which means I have no political or business connections. What will likely be the weakest part of my application? How can I best try to strengthen that?
I enlisted in the Army National Guard immediately after high school and began college at Appalachian State (first generation college student from rural Mississippi). After deploying with the Army, I transferred to Duke University where I graduated with a 3.4 (GMAT is 700).
Immediately after college, I went to work for the consulting company CGI Group before accepting a job at Accenture (where I currently am). During this entire time, I have continued to serve in the Army National Guard (currently with 6 years of service).
Extracurricular: Freelance writer for several dozen magazines. In addition to a deployment to the middle east, I have also deployed to support public relations missions in Korea, engineering operations in Jamaica, and information operations in Africa. I am also a modern dancer and writer for a local Washington DC dance company.
Hi Sandy. Can you please evaluate my candidacy to HBS?
GMAT: 630
Undergrad (Engineering Degree-Non Ivy) GPA: 2.9
First generation Asian immigrant/Female/28 years old
Extracurricular: Two engineering societies
Work: Great resume which shows the progression of responsibilities throughout naval career. Naval Officer for 4 years managing military construction/leading a minimum of 20 enlisted personnel. Two deployment sites. Before joining the Navy, I worked for my parents’ business for over a decade being a translator (first to speak English in my family). I am also the first to apply to grad school in my family.
I’m worried my low GPA/GMAT scores will eliminate any chances of my getting accepted into HBS. Can you please evaluate? Thank you!
1530 GRE
3.42 Grade Point Average
Istudy statistics and econ, minor in math at University of Washington
Work experience at China’s top 3 insurance company( world top 500) for internship, university cafe assistant
Extracurricular includes university based student organized leadership program, representative at UW student association and very active participation in community services
want to apply for HBS 2+2 program
Does working at Citigroup impact the chances of getting into a top bschool negatively?
750 GMAT
3.2 GPA from Stony Brook university in Elec engg
6 years at Citi in derivatives technolgoy, with excellent track record
part time entrepreneurial ventures to talk about, with limited success
AP,
Not at all. Citigroup tends to be a major feeder school to the top MBA programs and is thought of very highly by admission officers.
John,
I recently scored very strong on the GRE (Q800 V690) and am applying only to dual programs such as YaleMBA/Forestery, DukeMBA/MEM, MichiganErbInstitute, UC Boulder dual MBA/EVNS and maybe standford programs, mostly because I am looking to focus on Energy programs.
But my concern is that I went to a small very interdisciplinary school in Washington, studied mostly Chemistry and have been working in at startups, albeit in the renewable energy field for the last 5+ years starting in the technical but slowly working my way into strategy and business development, but in true startup fashion wearing all hats in between. Can you give me a little insight, since I am definitely not the traditional applicant.
Matt,
All these schools see plenty of non-traditional applicants. The fact that you’re applying to these dual-degree programs will likely get you special attention by admissions. So not to worry. Go for it. Good luck to you.
Thx a lot John, I’ve been reading all your blogs here, really intelligent writings. Tuck is one of my dream schools too, Just a quick assessment for me would be great
Mr Greenpeacer
750 GMAT
3.2 Under 3.6 Graduate
Earned an engineering degree at top university in China, a master in environmental in a top Canadian University
28 years old, Canadian Citizen
Worked in a boutique consulting firm for a year. Has been working for Greenpeace Canada for 3 years ever since, active project organizer, lots of leadership stories, steady progress, decent extracurriculars
Career goal: Environmental NGO in China
Concern: Greenpeace’s evil and aggressive impression
Target schools:
Yale
Tuck
Cornell
Duke
Darden
INSEAD
Oxford
Thanks very much!
GMAT – 760
GPA – 77 SCALE 100
GRADUATED FROM A PREMIER NAUTICAL INSTITUTE IN INDIA ( WON THE ‘PRESIDENT GOLD MEDAL’ AS WELL AS ‘BEST CADET AWARD’ IN INDIA)
MORE THAN 5 YEARS OF JOB EXPERIENCE AS NAVIGATING OFFICER WITH AN ITALIAN SHIPPING COMPANY .
STRICTLY OK EXTRACURRICULAR NOTHING TOO FANCY.
CONSIDERABLE COMMUNITY SERVICE.
WISH TO KNOW DO I EVEN STAND A CHANCE TO GAIN ADMISSION TO SOME OF TOP COLLEGES ( HARVARD-STANFORD-WHARTON-KELLOG……..) ESPECIALLY WITH THE KIND OF JOB EXPERIENCE I HAVE ?
Sandy, Could you please evaluate my chances at HBS, Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, NYU, and Michigan?
- 730 GMAT (47 Q / 44 V)
- 3.45 Undergrad GPA – Public Policy and Markets and Management – Duke
- 4 years of work experience at GE Capital – Started in GE’s Financial Management Program (2 years), accepted a role on the GE Capital risk analytics team for a 1 year project to revamp GE’s stress testing and regulatory communication; currently an Associate on GE’s leveraged finance team (Sponsor Finance)
- Extra curricular activities: Co-founded a non-profit entrepreneurship at Duke that coordinated and sponsored student internships at non-profits around the U.S.; Various volunteer work; College club athletics
- 26 year old white male from North Carolina (currently working in NYC)
HI John
What is the opinion of a job at Cisco Systems in the adcoms view at top B schools? I am yet to take my GMAT but wanted to know how does Cisco match up with the likes of Microsoft, IBM or other tech companies ( certainly not apple or google). My targets are Stern, Duke, UNC.
Thanks
Andy
Andy,
Very well. Cisco’s a big brand, a major Silicon Valley player, and recruits MBAs. While some of the luster it had earlier is gone, it’s still should be an asset to your application, especially to the East Coast schools you cite. Good luck.
Hey John,
Do you mind an article of Undergrad students could do right now to position themselves well for a MBA down the road?
Similarly, it would be nice if you did the “ideal candidate” for a school (not Minority/Olympic Winner but more the average candidate, if there’s one, that’s likely to be accepted at the school)
Undergrad student,
Very good idea. I’ll order that up.
Hi John,
I would be in the Twin Brothers category from India..:)
But i have been to IBM-India(2 YEARS) and is currently working in VISA-Singapore (full time position for last 2 years.)
A GMAT score of 720 ..and GPA of 3.5(from an Indian State University- can be compared to National Institutes Of technology..)
What are my odds in getting in one of the top B-Schools?? Of-course , these schools look for many other things ..essays…the story i got to sell ..and other things..STILL!!
Hi John,
I am from India and I need a favor from you.
Is there a tool or methodology that you can come up with to convert (at least approximately) the Indian Ivy Schools’ GPA into US GPA. I have heard that it is not a direct conversion from a scale of 10 to a scale of 4.
For instance, one of my friends who is from an average college in India with score in 60s (60+%) told me his UG score stod at 3.4 after conversion from his BSchool.
It will be of great help to a lot of Indian applicants if you can come up with a tool at least for the top Indian colleges/Universities (IITs, NITs, BITS, Anna University, BHU, IISc and the like).
Thank you in advance.
Female
First Generation College Graduate from the United States Naval Academy
3.2 GPA double major Economics and Political Science (BS)
2 years on Varsity Crew team
President of the Astronomy Club
Expected GMAT 680 minimum (720 hopefully)
One out of 18 women chosen to be the first in the history of the United States Navy to break into one of the last male only fields in the country: submarining.
Graduate of the Navy’s Officer Nuclear Power program.
4 years work experience as an officer in the United States Navy.
I plan either starting or becoming largely involved in a charity organization focusing on improving children’s education in the U.S. prior to applying.
710 Gmat
3.5 GPA for Masters degree in Industrial & Systems engineering (focus on process improvement & statistical analysis) and Masters degree in electrical engineering (microelectronics thesis) both from northern illinois university
1320 GRE score
Undergrad: Electronics and communication engineering from indian university. (not great GPA)
~3 yrs experience as a Sr.process improvement engineer at fortune 500 electronics manufacturing companies.
Started own consulting company focused on utilizing process improvement techniques to small business (moderately successful)
28 yrs old male indian origin living in the USA.
Preferred schools: Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Northwestern, Sloan, Booth
Post MBA goal: top tier management consulting firm
720 GMAT
3.16 GPA in Management Engineering (honors course where top 20% in the entrance exam are the only ones accepted and only 60% passing rate)at #1 University in the Philippines
Graduated in the top 20% of the whole batch.
Passed the CFA level 1 exam placing in the top bracket in all topics (passing rate at 30%)
Worked as an AVP in the number one onion distribution company in the Philippines for one year optimizing both financial and operations and eliminating waste by 40% all this while under the load of debt to asset ratio of 60%
Now working as the COO of the company after the first year and managing the expansion of the company and dealing with CEOs of different countries serving as the suppliers for the different materials of the cold storage facility.
The background of the experience is under the cloud of constant power struggle by the board of directors and the owners of the company as well as security concerns due to shooting incidents involving my cousin who is an employee of the company.
23 years old, Minority Chinese.