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Surprises In U.S. News’ 2017 MBA Ranking

MANY BIG FLIPS AND FLOPS IN THE RANKING

While the metrics employed by U.S. News may appear to be reasonable, they yield very close results–in many cases the difference between an MBA program ranked 35 and 40 or 60 and 70 is statistically meaningless. The best proof of this is the roller-coaster, year-over-year flips and flops in the ranking by so many schools.

The further one goes down the list, the more likely you’ll see wildly volatile results—evidence that these MBA programs are so close together in quality that there really is no meaningful difference among them—at least as measured by the U.S. News’ methodology.

Consider the seven schools that U.S. News puts in the same rank of 57th. Those seven schools alone had 104 changes in places, with each averaging a change of 15 positions on the ranking. The Zicklin School of Business at CUNY’s Baruch College jumped 28 places to rank 57th from 85th last year. The Eccles School of Business at the University of Utah soared 22 places to 57th from 79th. The Isenberg School at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst rose 18 places to 57th from 75th.

IOWA’S TIPPIE PLUNGES 19 PLACES IN ONE OF THE YEAR’S BIGGEST FALLS

Dean Amy Hillman led W. P. Carey to its first Top 25 ranking

And what goes up, inevitably goes down. This year, the University of Iowa’s Tippie School of Business plunged 19 places to finish 64th from 45th last year. That 19-position drop is among the largest falloffs in this year’s U.S. News ranking, but by no means is it unusual.

In most of these cases, there were no substantial changes at the school or the full-time MBA programs that could possibly warrant such big swings. Indeed, it is rare when a big change is the result of meaningful and dramatic alternations of an MBA program.

The one clear example this year is the W. P. Carey School of Business at Arizona State University which rose 10 spots in a single year to a 25th place finish. The school’s improved admissions metrics reflects a strategic decision to offer a full scholarship to every single MBA student in a completely revamped MBA curriculum.

A RARE EXAMPLE OF A SCHOOL THAT ROSE ON THE BASIS OF MAJOR CHANGE

The upshot: Carey reduced its acceptance rate to just 14.3%, below Wharton’s 19.6% or Kellogg’s 20.1%. The average GMAT score for its latest cohort jumped ten points to 682, just a point below Emory University’s Goizueta School of Business, while the average GPA rose to 3.54, a sliver above Dartmouth Tuck School’s level, from 3.37 a year earlier.

The numbers hardly tell the full story. The deep quality and wide diversity of the class taking advantage of this unprecedented offer is not fully captured by a few metrics (see Meet Arizona State’s MBA Class of 2018). No doubt, this cohort will also realized substantially higher starting salaries when they graduate, providing even more lift to the school in U.S. News’ future rankings.

And then there is the big eight-place jump by NYU’s Stern School. Last year the school did a free fall, dropping nine places after Stern had unintentionally omitted one data point out of more than 300 asked for by U.S. News (see Why U.S. News Whacked NYU Stern). It was the number of incoming students who had taken the GMAT test. The magazine relies on this statistic in its ranking model to to determine the strength of a school’s entering class relative to other programs.

HOW IN THE WORLD COULD STANFORD FALL BEHIND WHARTON & BOOTH?

Instead of calling up Stern and asking for the missing piece of information, U.S. News—which is ranking tens of thousands of schools in business, law, medicine, engineering and education at the same time—chose to use its estimate which severely penalized Stern. When school officials tried to give U.S. News the previously omitted information, the magazine refused to re-run all its rankings calculations. So Stern’s rise is, in effect, a correction of sorts on a unfair ranking in 2016.

Otherwise, this year’s biggest news has to do with Wharton’s move into a first-place tie with Harvard Business School and Stanford’s second consecutive decline in the U.S. News ranking to finish in a three-way tie for fourth place. Stanford fell into second place last year behind HBS due to comparatively lower employment rates for graduates, and it fell further behind this year for the same reason.

Though 72% of Stanford’s graduating class had job offers at graduation in 2016, only 63% of the students accepted those offers. That is a job acceptance rate that is nine percentage points below the year-earlier level of 72% when 79% of the class had offers. The deterioration in those numbers also showed up three months after graduation. At that point, 90% of the class had offers but just 82% of the MBAs accepted their offers. The job acceptance rate three months after commencement dropped four percentage points from the 86% level of a year earlier. Yet, the pair of job accepted metrics at graduation and three months later account for a substantial 21% of U.S. News’ ranking.

HOW THE TOP 10 PERFORMED ON U.S. NEWS’ PEER & RECRUITER SURVEYS

School 2016 Peer Survey 2016 Recruiter Survey
1. Harvard 4.8 (4.8) 4.5 (4.6)
1. Wharton 4.7 (4.7) 4.5 (4.5)
3. Chicago (Booth) 4.7 (4.7) 4.5 (4.5)
4. Northwestern (Kellogg) 4.6 (4.6) 4.4 (4.5)
4. MIT (Sloan) 4.7 (4.7) 4.4 (4.5)
4. Stanford GSB 4.8 (4.8) 4.4 (4.5)
7. UC-Berkeley (Haas) 4.6 (4.6) 4.3 (4.3)
8. Dartmouth (Tuck) 4.3 (4.3) 4.2 (4.2)
9. Yale SOM 4.3 (4.3) 4.3 (4.3)
9. Columbia 4.4 (4.4) 4.1 (4.1)

Source: U.S. News & World Report Year-earlier scores are between parentheses. All scores are on a five-point scale with five representing the highest possible score.

(See following page for core metrics of the Top 25 ranked schools)

  • Truth

    The Wharton pay number is manipulated. Read their employment report and the other M7 employment reports. The number doesn’t logically follow. The pay at HBS and GSB is higher. The pay at Booth is almost identical.

  • Stanford GSB

    Well, CBS is beating Yale at everything that you listed.

  • mbagrad

    I 100% agree, and I’m sure other MBA grads who still browse this from time to time all feel the same way. As a 2016 MBA alum from one of the top 15-20 schools, I can say that from engaging with my peers from other schools, the day-to-day grind you go through is very similar regardless of the school you end up. In other words, how you do at one school vs. another really shouldn’t differ much, and if it does, it is very marginal. As someone mentioned below it’s all about the individual once you’re in one of these fine institutions.

    From my experiences recruiting (albeit mostly in tech), unless there are real tight-knit alumni strongholds, as long as you are good enough to get the interview room, being M7 vs. Top 20 is no different. If you’re in the room, it’s on you to prove yourself that you are the right fit for for the job, and at that point the employer does not base their decisions anymore on the school you went to.

    In MBA we learn about marketing and positioning, and it’s very clear that all these top schools are putting their professors’ studies and advice into action when they put together the materials to make websites like this one generate so much hype and hits. If you’re a prospective, don’t fall into the trap of taking sites like this too seriously and too literal 🙂

  • This article is laughable

    No kidding. Not being able to secure a job is a possible reality no matter what school you attended.

  • JohnAByrne

    Thanks for your thoughts. You clearly have a deep understanding of the limitations of these stats. So I really appreciate your intelligent and thoughtful perspective. Our total comp numbers generally take these issues into account. We estimate other guaranteed for Kellogg, for example, and we do not include relocation allowances in the Wharton number. The Ross pay number, I now believe, may be somewhat inflated given the school’s 87% response rate to its employment survey, the lowest response for any prestige school and just two points above the required minimum threshold for reporting pay and placement data. I totally agree with your observation on PE and VC jobs. Stanford and HBS have a clear and distinct advantage here and those jobs are among the most lucrative available to MBAs today.

  • CreatingValue

    John, I do think that what schools choose to include in the “other guaranteed “compensation” is the main driver of the skewness of this metric, probably even more so than averages vs. mean or even the (%) reporting.

    For example, Ross’s median salary is $117.75K vs. Kellogg’s $125K but Kellogg only reports Sign-On bonuses whereas Ross reports other Sign-On + Other Guaranteed, which pushes the “Total Pay” above Kellogg’s. Another example is that Yale SOM and Wharton include relocation pay in their Other Guaranteed figure, but neither Columbia nor Booth does.

    I would argue that the ambiguity of Other Guaranteed Compensation skews the pay figures immensely. If we ranked just median/average base salaries, the groupings are very similar to the common wisdom “ranking tiers”:

    Tiers By Median Salary
    1) HBS/Stanford (135K/136K)
    2) Wharton/Kellogg/Booth/Columbia/Sloan/Hass/Tuck (all 125K)
    3) Ross/Yale/Darden/Stern/Fuqua (between 115-120K)

    From the perspective of a M7 student who’s gone through recruiting this seemed to be aligned with the reality of opportunities across the schools. The difference between H/S and group 2 schools is H/S has access to big boy PE/VC jobs that none of the group 2 schools do. At, group 2 schools, the plurality of students all do the same tier 1 IB/consulting. The group 3 schools have same opportunities as group 2, but tier 1 firms have lower quotas (thus driving down the salary a bit).

  • Anon

    I agree!

  • somsquared

    higher GMAT, higher GPA, lower acceptance rate, higher MBB/BB/PE/VC placement

  • @somsquared

    go ahead argue

  • somsquared

    SOM is arguably a tier above Tuck/CBS

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    Your IP address has given me a treasure trove of info. Even the best case scenarios I envisioned for you are far from reality.

    However, I won’t blow up your spot by letting people know just how bad things really are over there. 40 comments later, I’m committed to taking the high road.

    So rest assured your truths will stay our secret. And better yet, I will not let the people who comment at CNN dot com know that despite your alias being Ted Turner there, you are, in fact, not Ted Turner.

  • Anon

    Assuming that HBS’ and GSB’ lower employment % post-grad vs. Wharton is due solely to students pursuing less traditional corporate roles in favor of the next hot start-up is a jump.

  • HBS

    I am sorry for hurting your feelings, 40 year old loser. Don’t try to kill yourself now.

  • Bring your popcorn

    For everyone who is not MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME or HBS – strap in and hold onto your popcorn because this thread just got weird.

  • Daniel Edwards

    It’s relevant because it’s all about image to these programs. Not relevant otherwise.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    Two things. Once, you and your co workers at General Mills nailed the fruit flavor on Cheerios. Great work.

    And two, I’ve pledged 25% of my wealth to charity. Pretend to be a sick kid or something and I’ll break you off a piece.

    Do you post at NASA’s website as Galileo?

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    Tried paying the bill with disqus boasts but they wouldn’t accept as barter. How do you pay your bills in the absence of money?

    Keep chasing name recognition… from places I spurned years ago.

    Totally the path to success. You know, versus actually monetizing what little talent you have.

    Truth burns slow doesn’t it?

  • MBAObserver

    That is a joke. I’m looking at the rankings right now and IMD was ranked higher than Tuck, Yale, Fuqua, Stern, Fuqua last year and is still ranked higher than Fuqua and just behind the others. I really don’t care about rankings but, since you have already brought them up, your logic is working against you. In addition, your personal bias against a school’s director certainly does not justify your opinion and is not a base to consider yourself a “ranking expert”. I have worked with many IMD, INSEAD, and LBS grads and they do not deserve to have someone like you criticizing the school they worked hard to attend.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    Run along and make your interest only ARM payment, HBS. Spent your yearly gas bill on sea urchin last night

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    It was fun HBS. You ran out of steam a couple dozen comments back. Do you post on ESPN as Lebron James? BROKE

  • Disappointed Cornellian

    No surprise that Cornell MBA dropped 2 spots. All the hope that Johnson is on its way to becoming a top MBA program and is a ‘program to watch in 2017’ is just that, hope. The full time program is going to continue to suffer until the school focuses on it, for now the school is focused on forming the Johnson College of Biz (Dyson/Hotel/Johnson), CornellTech’s MBA program, launching various new masters programs / various partnerships…..Full time Cornell MBAs are just considered second class within the broader MBA world AND especially within their own school. Not a desirable place to attend for your MBA.

  • RankingExpert

    In business, it is not good idea to assume. Only use facts, the original idea was to consider IMD comparable to HBS and Stanford according the famous blocks of Mr Taylor. All the followings are natural discussions. My point is there are M7 + Tuck+Haas+Yale+Fuqua, and then by a considerable margin a group of good schools from Michigan, UCLA, to Vanderbilt, and in the middle there will be comfortable place for INSEAD, LBS, IESE, and IE. at the tail, there is place for IMD, SDA bocconi, Erasmus, RSM, and Vanderbilt. I say IMD is no longer a top 20 school. I am not associated with IMD by any mean, but I really don’t like the director for his ignorance and rudeness.

  • MBAObserver

    You manipulation of words I sidetracking this conversation. They were ranked 13 and are now 21 for their MBA ranking, not their executive program. 21 in the world is not bad by any means. There are way more than 3 articles talking about the demise of Wharton but it is still an elite school. As they say, “haters are going to hate” but I’m assuming by your clear negative bias that you either didn’t get in or are an estranged employee

  • HBS

    Blue ribbon sushi = cheap!!

    And btw, HBS stands for Harvard Business School, if your 40 year old little brain didn’t realize it yet. Btw, will probably be tough for you to get into any university with your middle school education.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    love the guys that talk degrees but not dollars. my favorite breed. listen, kids are back from activities. family mode right now. but you go keep stalking and what not. once they are down, we’ll be at blue ribbon sushi in soho tonight. so ferry — > 1 or c — > spring street. then short walk. look for me. i’ll be the person you want to be, won’t be hard to find. c.w. griswold. deeeeeep 8 figures and my 40 years were lost…lololol. P&G4LIFE

  • HBS

    Nope, we both don’t know that. We both know that you are a 40 year old loser who has been doing nothing in the last 4 years. Must be tiring for your family to listen the same stories over and over again for 4 years, without any intellectual advancement from your side.

  • HBS

    Your account is private, loser. Stop being ashamed of your intellectual inferiority and let us see where else you comment. I am sure if you unprivate yourself we will see you asking questions about the sizes of tampons that you need to wear.

  • HBS

    Damn, you have more than 350 comments on DISQUS. I am probably not the first one questioning your intellectuality on websites that it made you defend yourself with so many comments. Can you point me to any forum where you said something smart?

  • HBS

    Thank you! May your lost 40 years come back in 40 additional years to your expected life duration.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    BETTER OFF IN EVERY IMAGINABLE QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVE MEASURE. BY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE. BEST OF LUCK HBS. MAY YOUR SH*T RAISE OUTPACE TODAY’S MODEST INFLATION FOR MANY YEARS TO COME. YOU’LL NEED IT

  • HBS

    So Staten Island is a bum town that you live in?

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    DUMB F DISQUS USED IN ABOUT 500 WEB SITES

  • HBS

    I don’t troll, I speak the truth. It was pathetic to read your comments and imagine that there are 40 year old losers like yourself. Make no mistake, you are probably better off than 99.999% of the US population. But you are not better off than me either financially or educationally. Go search for your emba programs now.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    WHEN I NEED APPROPRIATE A CEREAL ADDITIVE TO MAKE MY KIDS SLEIGH GO FASTER, I’LL HOLLER CLARK GRISWOLD. P&G 4LIFE!!!

  • HBS

    Just give us your name here. I will send you a LinkedIn message, loser

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    YOUR TROLLING STAMINA IS IMMEASURABLE. YOU JUICING? GOTTA BE PEDS INVOLVED HERE

  • HBS

    Took you a year to come up with a post. No wonder I figured from your first post that you are intellectually inferior.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    I’VE GOT SOME OTHER NUMBERS IN STATEN ISLAND TO SAVE YOU THE FERRY RIDE OVER IF YOU’D PREFER.

  • HBS

    You haven’t made a net worth of 100M?

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    YOUR NOT ANYONE’S TYPE, MY FRIEND, WE BOTH KNOW THAT.

  • HBS

    Hey, don’t forget to give me your wife’s phone number if she is in Manhattan.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    I POSTED HERE ONCE, ONE QUESTION YOU MORON. LOL. AND THEN 30 POSTS TO YOU LOL DUMB F.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    BUM TOWN. MY REAL ESTATE TAXES = YOUR NET WORTH. HELL MY OBAMACARE TAX ON INVESTMENT INCOME WOULD MAKE YOU WEEP IN YOUR CAVE IN MIDDLE EARTH. BEST OF LUCK FINDING PRECIOUS TONIGHT, GOTTA GO.

  • HBS

    If your wife is in Manhattan now, can I have your number? She sounds hot and must be tired of an intellectually inferior human being, so I will be able to help her out (if you know what I mean).

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    OH SHE EATS. SHE EATS WELL HBS. ALL CASH TOO! WE ARE A HAPPY LOT OVER HERE. JUST BECAUSE I’M MAKING IT MY LIFE’S WORK TO TROLL YOU DOESNT MEAN I’M NOT. DON’T GET IT TWISTED, HBS.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    MISSED OUT = MADE 8 FIGURES? THEN YES, I MISSED OUT. YOU GOT ME!

  • HBS

    Says a loser who created his account here over a year ago and still got nothing out of it.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    ABSOLUTELY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED MAKING MILLIONS AT 25 TO GO TO GET MBA TO TRY TO SQUEEZE OUT 25K MORE AT PROCTER AND GAMBLE OR SOMETHING LIKE YOU LOLOL ABSOLUTELY HAROLD. STOP HIDING TROLL…LET’S SHARE RETURNS, K1S, WHATEVER YOU WANT. ALL REDACTED. IF I WAS YOU, I’D REDACT BOTH PERSONAL INFO AND THE EARNINGS. AND I’LL REDACT A FEW DIGITS. I’M SURE THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE THAT LOVES YOU, HBS. FOR WHO YOU ARE. A GRANDMA OR SOMETHING.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    INCOME DUMB F. NET WORTH ANOTHER STORY

  • HBS

    You won’t even be able to buy your kids an apartment if they decide to move out of your bum town and try themselves in Manhattan. They will hate you so much for not being smarter and not investing in your education when you were younger. Don’t make the same mistake with your kids though, remember 25 years old is an appropriate age for an MBA.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    GIVING UP LOLOL YEAH, MY KIDS ARE TOTALLY GOING TO RESENT ME FOR KICKING A&& AND TAKING NAMES SO I CAN BE THERE 100% OF THE TIME FOR THEM WHILE THE FIGURATIVE MONEY MACHINE IS STILL GOING BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR WITH PASSIVE INCOME. ABSOLUTELY HAROLD! THEY WERE TOTALLY RESENT ME FOR THAT!!

  • HBS

    You are sounding stressed out, loser. You have missed a lot in the last 4 years of your inactivity. Go try to get your MBA now, maybe that will make you feel more secure. You probably feel intellectually inferior to a lot of people.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    PATENTLY UNTRUE HAROLD. WE BOTH KNOW THAT!!!

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    READ AGAIN HAROLD! F*ING PLEBE

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    3BR SITTING UNRENTED PAID FOR IN CASH. FOR QUARTERLY BANG OUT WEEKENDS WITH WIFE, FYI. TRY AGAIN.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    MUST BE TOUGH BOTTOM FEEDING. THE PLANKTON OF THE BUSINESS FOOD CHAIN. AND SO GLAD I WON’T NEED TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION YOUR PARENTS HAD WITH YOU WITH CHILDREN OF MY OWN. YOU KNOW, THE ONE WHERE YOU JUST TELL THEM TO BE HAPPY THEY ARE HAPPY, TRY TO FIND LOVE, JUST ACCEPT THEIR LOT IN LIFE.

  • HBS

    She has to deal with a 40 year old jobless and insecure loser on a daily basis though. Can’t say she is better off.

  • HBS

    Hard to imagine myself being 40 years old and not being able to afford a decent apartment in Manhattan. I have higher goals. And I am definitely not retiring at 36 with a mere 7 figure net worth.

  • HBS

    Your net worth is change for me. Your kids will be ashamed of their father for giving up at 36 and then trying to go back to school after 4 year of being a loser.

  • HBS

    Truth hurts, loser? You can’t even buy a decent apartment in Manhattan on your net worth, and you retired at 36. You give up so quickly. Weak!

  • HBS

    You could have been making your whole net worth in half a year on Wall Street, if you had gotten your MBA 15 years ago. But you wasted your life and now trying to get an MBA as a 40 year old. I am really sorry that you wasted your life.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    the live in nanny is better off than you! and she’s got an ensuite bathroom and 60″ oled hanging in her bedroom!!! lolol HBS

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    IMAGINE BEING ME HBS. IMAGINE. THEN SNAP OUT OF IT, AND GET BACK TO DOING YOU. YOU KNOW, KINDA SUCKING AT EVERYTHING, INCLUDING YOUR LIFE’S WORK (TROLLING) LOLOL ALL DAY HBS ALL DAY!!!!!

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    BROKE/SALTY. HAVE A BLESSED DAY, HAROLD. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL PS. ONE MORE GENERATION OF PROGENY

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    DEEP SEVEN FIGURES DITCH DIGGER. DEEEEEEP. WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT DEEP?

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    DITCH DIGGER. MAY YOU LOSE YOUR VIRGINITY IN 2017

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    SAYS THE LOSER POSTING HERE DAY AND NIGHT. LOL WORLD NEEDS DITCH DIGGERS TOO, HBS.

  • HBS

    C. Taylor, thanks for spending so much time giving advice to Michel De Nostredame. I am afraid his little and old 40 year old brain will forget everything you said in about 2 minutes. I am just commenting here for the sole purpose that he will respond to me, and maybe it will force him to read your comment one more time. Let’s hope and pray that you time was really well spent.

  • HBS

    Imagine what you could have achieved if you had gotten your MBA 15 years ago. You wouldn’t be commenting on this website asking for MBA programs like a little 40 years old loser. You lost your chance, maybe in the next life you will be born smarter.

  • HBS

    So what prevented you from working and surpassing Bill Gates’ net worth if you were so successful by 36? I don’t see the billionaires retiring so early, probably they were not as mentally weak as you.

  • HBS

    Well, a lot of successful people keep growing their net worth and don’t retire when they are 36. All the billionaires keep working and making more money. Shows that you are a loser, your work broke you mentally that you decided to retire and not to continue. You are a weak individual. You are pathetic.

  • HBS

    University of Phoenix would really appreciate having you as their student. Check them out, you will be a great fit for them.

  • HBS

    Further shows your insecurity, 40 year old loser.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    Awesome reply and thank you so much for your time

  • C. Taylor

    You have several options, some of them location related. P&Q has a site for EMBA stuff.

    Main thing is to consider how dedicated you are to a transition and invest in it now. You need to learn how to network. You need to demonstrate dedication to your intended path. Getting into your targeted field on the side will help.

    Option1. Build credible and demonstrated interest in and understanding of your targeted field. Get an EMBA, online degree, or whatever, and network your way into the new career.

    Option2. Same for interest as above. Join a part time program or online program that allows transitioning to a full time program, and do what is needed to transition. Or simply network into that career.

    Option3. Really invest in your intended field. Immerse yourself in the knowledge and skills needed to excel in it. Network into work/internships on the side. Maybe even a full time job. Kill the GMAT (700+ at your age). Apply to full time programs after you can put a year or more of successes on your resume (projects, deals, etc.).

    Option4. Same as option3 except you skip the MBA–or get it online/part time–and continue working in that field.

    Note you won’t be able to start over as at the low level–pretty much no matter what–in investment banking or management consulting. There may be ways to leverage your existing skill set and experience and target niche positions in those fields. And no matter what, you’ll have to network more than other full time grads to convince many employers in most fields.

    Don’t be baited and generally ignore anons who don’t get it. Consider that admins view these sites and want someone who will represent their brand with dignity.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    HBS IMAGINE NOT EVEN NEEDING AN MBA! IMAGINE BEING OK DROPPING 170-200K ON A DEGREE SIMPLY OUT OF BOREDOM…BEING TOTALLY OK WITH ZERO RETURN ON INVESTMENT. LOL IMAGINE THAT. IMAGINE SOMEONE IS IN THE POSITION TO DO THAT. RETIRED 36. LOL IMAGINE THAT HBS!! LOL OH WAIT THAT’S ME HBS!! HBS LOLOLOL HBS LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!

  • RankingExpert

    Reminder: INSEAD Dec class is 500 grads, IMD is just 90! both graduate in Dec!

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    WHAT DOES HBS STAND FOR? HARRY, BROKE AND SALTY?

  • C. Taylor

    Don’t be baited and generally ignore anons who don’t get it. I’ll post more in a minute. Consider that admins view these sites and want someone who will represent their brand with dignity.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    HBS WHERE ART THOU? RETIRED AT 36, MBA TO POTENTIALLY FURTHER ROUND OUT MY SKILL SET TO ADD MORE INCOME TO MY INCOME’S INCOME. HOW IS YOUR LIFE COMING ALONG HBS TROLLING IN P&Q!!?!?!?!? ME = INCREDIBLY BLESSED, FINANCIALLY SECURE TIL THE NEXT EXTINCTION LEVEL EVENT, HAVE PORN STAR SEX WITH SMOKING WIFE, HAVE INCREDIBLE BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN YOU WILL SOMEDAY BE WORKING FOR?!?!? YES HBS TELL ME MORE !!! DO SHARE !!! ENLIGHTEN ME WITH THE KEYS TO YOUR SUCCESSFUL ENDEAVORS. YOU’RE NOT EVEN A GOOD TROLL, TROLL!!!!!!!!!!

  • RankingExpert

    You should also note that the number of applications for IMD MBA has declined steadily during the recent years to just 204 last year! Also, try to go to the program website and see the ill behavior of the program director, he portrays himself everywhere as he owns the program.
    The new president of the school and the school leadership as a whole do not really care about the degree programs because they contribute less than 5% of the school revenue. The IMD is known to run as business, in fact, it is the only business school that makes money, so they don’t care at all about the degree program, they care very much and devote all resources to the executive education programs, that generate money. It is a big mistake to go to IMD for a degree of MBA. Go there for short executive education paid by your employer.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    LET ME KNOW IF SOME DATA SUFFICIENCY PROBLEMS WILL HELP YOU BETTER UNDERSTAND YOUR RELATIVE WORTH! HAPPY TO OBLIGE !!!!

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    some people have so many talents they have trouble finding avenues to best leverage all or even some of them. THEN THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE YOU, the photo negative of me!! GO BACK TO MIDDLE EARTH, HBS TROLL!!!!!

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    fyi about 1% of those people qualify to work for me. so think of where you stand!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL TROLL ON TROLL!

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    you’re thinking about all this a little too hard. just find the value program at columbia compelling. simple as that. you want a job tidying up my lawn tho let me know. forgot to leave two generations of your progeny’s progeny above. forgive the oversight BROKE CHUMP LOL

  • tema

    I know 12 IMD 2015 grads still searching for jobs!

  • RankingExpert

    It depends on what elitism standards you are referring to!. We can say_for sure_ that all the MBA programs included into the FT Global MBA ranking are elite and excellent compared to the rest unranked. and given that they were ranked out of thousands of MBA programs out there. There are just 1% of all MBA programs worldwide that are triple accredited, (AACSB, AMBA, and EQUIS), so this is also another standard of elitism! You seem to get me wrong everytime, I am not saying that IMD is a “rubbish” school, NO, in fact, in the executive education area it is the world’s best, most of big corporations executives prefer Lausanne over other cities. But, when it comes to a degree program, something associated with strong academic roots and prestige, IMD shortly reach near the top with its MBA under the leadership of Peter Lourange, some 15 years ago, but the fact that it is not a university based school, no academic departments, no tenure system, make the school hard for a DEGREE program, it is excellent for executive coaching and training, so most people would prefer to have thier MBA at top American school, and get executive training at IMD. IMD MBA has its strongest base within narrow european manufacturing sector. other than that, it is better to go to another top MBA program.
    The recent events happened that weakened the program, the weird director who hates the american way of doing business and don’t like the american MBA, he clashed with all the existing team and created mess. There are three articles on P&Q about these events, in 2014 and 2015. Most of admission consultants advise people not to go to IMD now. All these damaging things plus the silent break with the university of lausanne, Now, the IMD MBA is no longer under the patronage of the university as it was since its founding. That was because of clash with the current “german” director. Anywa, I am aware of IMD and know it well, in my opinion, it is with Erasmus RSM, SDA Bocconi, and ESADE. the best in europe are INSEAD, LBS, and IE. That of course if you coud not make it into the top 12 US schools (M7+Haas+Tuck+Yale+Fuqua+Darden).

  • C. Taylor

    The IMD ranking toggling in the FT is mainly due to toggling in the three month employed percentage–which switches between around 90% and around 80%. IMD guys graduate in Dec. so there is an incentive to push some jobs efforts into the new year. High student work loads at IMD likely also incentivize a more relaxed approach to the job search immediately post-MBA.

    Stanford’s three-month employment numbers toggle in a similar fashion, but Stanford’s FT ranking is insulated by the combination of its outsized finance salaries (HF/VC/PE) with the FT’s use of means instead of medians.

    I’d expect you’d see IMD in the 3-7 range of ranks or so on the FT’s list if that finance difference was appropriately considered. Similar to Stanford.

  • MBAObserver

    If I remember correctly it was ranked 13 last year, which I consider elite. Claiming that it is elite one year and not the next is pure stupidity. Like this thread has said, year over year fluctuations are irrelevant. Certain schools are elite and others are working their way towards joining the elite. IMD is not HBS or Stanford but it is an elite program.

  • HBS

    I see your money is not helping you in getting to the elite schools? lol What an insecure 40 year old! You lost your chance to get an MBA, you will feel like a complete failure sitting in classes with 24-25 year olds who have achieved so much more than you in 40 years.

  • HBS

    From you describing yourself in another comment “40 year old trying to change your field”, I don’t see how money is making you any happier. You seem to be an insecure individual who has not achieved anything by 40.

  • current_wharton_student

    let’s be clear with this ‘tier’ talk. Yale certainly isn’t in that mosh pit of schools ranked 11-14. Quite frankly Ross isn’t either. Ross is indexed at 89, which is 2 points higher than duke or NYU.

    HBS/GSB
    Wharton/booth
    MIT/Kellogg/Haas
    CBS/SOM/Tuck
    Ross/NYU
    others….

  • current_wharton_student

    Top Story: Fuqua almost able to break the 700 average GMAT. KEEP AT IT BIG BLUE! Maybe in a couple more years!

  • somsquared

    The same loser every post wants to equate SOM with Fuqua, UVA, Mich etc. People aren’t buying it. SOM’s applications are up big again this year, acceptance rate down again this year and we sent more to MBB than any prior year.

    Keep bringing the hate cry baby from Fuqua.

  • BlueDevils

    I agree that SOM, Tuck and CBS are essentially interchangeable at this point.

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    John is a full time MBA an absolute waste of time for a 40 yr old looking for a 180 career transition? I understand the difficulty in getting into an elite full time program but just curious if it’s even worthwhile if admitted. The EMBA seems suited for older folks, but not that well suited for those with the goal of a transition to another field

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    Very helpful HBS thank you!

  • Not wharton

    Fine, I agree with your statement, differences of employers are in fact way smaller than people think (with a few exceptions like top PE and VC) and differences in placements reflect more self-selection than anything else.

  • try again

    Booth has said itself that the gift should NOT be included in the endowment. Booth does not won the gift, it merely receives a payout every year, which fluctuates from year to year tremendously.

  • RankingExpert

    According to FT global MBA ranking, IMD is ranked 21. Not 3 and not 11. So it is definitely outside the elite group.

  • Rejected from H/S/W, Boothie

    I wasn’t talking only about the MBA program, dummie!

  • HBS

    How can you be an MBA student if you can’t even find an article?

  • HBS

    The real question is who is paying P&Q more for advertising: Booth or Wharton?

  • Duhh

    A simple linkedin search would show this is obviously false. Too many alternative facts flying around out there

  • MBAObserver

    Yaniv, the original point of this particular thread was about Vanderbilt, which, by the way, I think is a strong school though I have not worked with too many of their graduates. Anyway, the secondary point was to think about schools in blocks which is a valid argument. There was disagreement about the blocks which, as always, derailed the main point of the thread. We are talking about the best schools in the world. Whether IMD is number 3 or number 11 in the world doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme.

  • reader

    I suspect John was a booth graduate and had been rejected by Wharton or Penn when applying to college or MBA program. All his articles are smear campaign against Wharton and in favor of Booth. Completely biased.

  • PS

    You’re seriously implying that students who attend Wharton aren’t real people, that they’re not human. Please stop resorting to petty name-calling. How is it a ridiculous argument that Wharton has a brand edge over Booth? That’s common knowledge. No one here is arguing that Booth isn’t a great b-school. Maybe some day, if Chicago’s upward trend continues, Chicago’s brand will rise above Booth’s. But that won’t happen for decades. It takes a long time for ingrained opinions to change.

  • Ojo

    quality (Booth – Nobels) vs quantity (Wharton – news articles) is a basic concept

  • Ojo

    Firstly, HBS’ faculty is not the best in class. Second, you have not really studied financial/monetary/asset pricing/risk theory based on your comment.

  • Ojo

    It’s not. (It is)

  • Ojo

    You have no valid arguments to make. Fact is when you include David Booth’s still record gift, Chicago has more monetary resources (i.e. deeper pockets) than any school except HBS. This has been well documented.

    To continue with your analogy, Wharton “people” are like the jocks who peak in high school and then let the dorky kids become their bosses.

  • No

    *I would not say it’s stronger than Wharton’s

  • No

    Umm I know professors at HBS who were rejected by its MBA program. PhD and MBA programs look for completely different things. Anyway, I agree that UChicago is a strong academic business school, but I would not say its weaker than Wharton’s. As HSW motes below, Wharton’s research output is the largest of any b-school in the country.

  • HSW

    you are so funny. you realize Wharton is the business school with the biggest and strongest research output right?

  • try again

    *doesn’t

  • lmao

    wharton does not have a slight brand advantage over Booth, it has a major brand advantage. Also when wharton talked about the difference in resources, it mainly referred to H/S not Booth. Booth does not have more resources than Wharton and Chicago definitely does not have more resources than Penn. Also the fact that Penn is an ivy gives it an extra prestige boost that Chicago lacks.

    Chicago people need to stop drinking the kool aid, it is embarrassing. reminds me of the dorky kid in high school that final gets some attention and suddenly thinks he is the king of high school, in other words delusional..

  • try again

    acceptance rate does say much. on the other hand yield does.

    Penn yield 68%
    Chicago yield 66%
    Brown yield 56%

    (and if you look at just RD, the same order persists)

  • Ojo

    Wharton addressed its decline at a town hall and said it’s because other schools can devote more resources to their MBA program. Respectfully, your anecdotal evidence is a lagging indicator. I would say that both schools are very close in quality with Wharton having a slight brand advantage and Chicago having the momentum and the $$$, which is probably the most important factor determining the school’s future.

  • PS

    While I agree that Chicago is a fantastic academic institution (especially given the number of Nobels coming out of the school), the reality is that Booth’s brand still lags behind Wharton’s. I grew up in Houston (from a relatively well-off part of the city), and most people I grew up with have never heard of UChicago (or think it’s a community college). The name recognition/brand disparity is even wider internationally. Based on conversations I’ve had with international coworkers, Wharton’s brand is second only to that of HBS. Even Stanford lags behind a bit – Stanford is generally thought of as a science/engineering school and not a business school (at least that’s the perceptions outside the US).

  • Ojo

    UofC 2016 acceptance rate 7.6%
    Penn 2016 acceptance rate 9.4%
    Brown 2016 acceptance rate 9.3%

  • Ojo

    “… the safer bet WAS Wharton”. Now they can’t even get students to report their employment situation because most likely it’s not great.

  • Ojo

    Lol. As a former Wharton professor said, “I wasn’t accepted to its MBA program but was hired to teach it”. UofC’s impact on finance and economics is unparalleled, with MIT a distant second. Wharton is a trade school and most of its teachings are available for free on wikipedia et al, Chicago on the other hand stands out with its groundbreaking research .

  • Ojo

    Shows your ignorance or lack of writing skills, Trump was not in Wharton’s MBA program. #MAGA

  • RSmathers

    You’re so hilariously aggressive when somebody disagrees with you. Maybe blogging shouldn’t be your thing.

  • elitist

    while we network at the Columbia/Priinceton Club or the Yale club or the Penn Clubs in NYC. after .. enjoy hanging out at your local bar
    NYC jobs are far more elite than Chicago
    U make far better global contacts in NYC
    There isa reason CBS admit rate is 14% and Booth admit rate is 24%
    It’s who u know that matters and not what u know, no company cares about your gmat scores

  • MICHEL DE NOSTREDAME

    Hi John. I was wondering if you could share some more insights on EMBA vs MBA. I’m an experienced professional (14 years career with one firm, 4 with my own family office), but I would like to switch careers, and believe an MBA program (not an EMBA) to be the best path.

  • BogBig

    Do you think someday Princeton will have its MBA?!

  • Yaniv

    It was the original point: “E.g. IMD/H/S, INSEAD/B/W/LBS, Sloan/Tuck/C, and K/Haas all together form a block of the best programs in the world,” This was his original post. AND there was a statement on how flexible his block is to have IMD and INSEAD along with HBS and Stanford! after that he gone wild and hysterical as usual when someone mentions IMD as an inferior school to the top tier ones..

  • RSmathers

    There’s some really weird spin in this article. In particular, the assertion that “Wharton’s emergence, however, likely has to do more with flaws in U.S. News’ methodology than any major improvements at the school”, pointing to mean vs median salary and employment self reporting rates, while Stanford was a victim of high student “self-confidence”.

    Why assume that Wharton’s employment results were some conspiracy (or willful neglect) to under-report poor outcomes while suggesting that Stanford’s unemployed were somehow all on deck for greatness in the tech sector, if we’d only wait a few months to find out? Sure there’s some of that going on in both cases, but the implication that there’s a victim and a villain here isn’t borne out by the evidence. Besides, there are plenty of folks at Wharton waiting for those big tech jobs or search funds too — let’s not forget them.

    The only constant in these rankings every year is complaining about methodology when the results don’t conform to a preconceived notion. When it comes to pay, it’s fine to argue that median is a better metric — but it doesn’t make sense to argue that using mean is a “flaw” unless your intent is to discount the achievements of a specific beneficiary. US News defined the average, every school is evaluated the same way, so singling out one school as undeserving when it won on a fair playing field is silly.

  • TrueStatisticalMeasure

    There it is. You have made a compelling point! Students who attend this tier of schools appear to be likely to make the same pay regardless of where they attended. Perfect. Thanks for chatting – we arrived at a useful insight that I hope applicants consider when comparing schools to apply to.

  • TrueMeasure

    Nice analysis on your part! In the absence of more precise data that can lead to more rigorous scrutiny, these aggregated statistics and the reality of what I and others report seeing on the ground is as far as I am able to take this at this time. However, I do think the aggregated pay and %employed data is an important barometer to judge basic raw differences and the results confirm that at this stage the average grad from any of those schools will conclude with roughly the same pay. Whether someone is at Bain, Deloitte, Goldman, JP Morgan, Google, or Boston Consulting, I cannot comment, but regardless of where they are, they tend to get the same pay no matter which school attended. Cheers and thanks for the back and forth!

  • slayer

    Wharton has way more superstar faculty than Booth. Also it is the number 1 school in terms of research output.

    The fact is the vast majority of people choose Wharton over Booth in a hot second.

  • lol not even close

    lol keep telling youself that….but it is simply not true Chicago is not more prestigious than Penn and specifically Booth is much less prestigious than Wharton. Many Chicago people are definitely delusionsal. The fact that Chicago has been going to extreme lengths to game the USNews college rankings for the past years does not mean it has actually risen. All other college rankings put it much lower than USNews. Chicago is not an ivy and it is very much insecure about that.
    The fact is that for undergrad, Chicago still loses the cross-admit battle with all ivies except two of the very bottom ones (Cornell and Dartmouth). It can’t even win over Brown.

  • Applicant

    I will go to Kellogg only if I get rejected by HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Booth, Columbia, Yale, & MIT. Oh yeah, I will only go there if they offer a full scholarship.

  • HBS

    I would only choose Booth if I wanted to work in Illinois, for all others the safer bet is Wharton.

  • lol

    Nice hairstyle, John!

  • Rejected from H/S/W, Boothie

    HBS & Wharton are the top 2 programs because they have U.S. presidents as graduates, b*tch!

  • Princeton sux

    The first time I’ve seen a person not being ashamed of using Princeton Uni’s name on this forum.

  • JohnnyM lost brains?

    That’s a dumb question. If you are good enough to get into MBB from a lower tier bschool, you will have 0 problems from H/S. People who don’t get to MBB from H/S, would never stand a chance at MBB coming from even lower tier schools. The only exception that I wouldn’t pick H/S (no scholarship) is if I got a full ride from Wharton.

  • TrueStatisticalMeasure

    Now we’re talking! The burden is on you to provide evidence, and now you’re starting to support your claim with data. The challenge here isn’t whether or not there is sufficient data to refute your claim – it’s whether or not there is enough data to substantiate yours. To confirm that there is no significant difference between the salary and employment data you would really need the raw data to conduct statistical significance testing, which I understand US News doesn’t release. It’s neither here nor there since you can’t access the data, but simple t-tests would really get us to a place where we could say with 95% confidence that one school or a few schools are significantly different on salary and employment stats.

    You might be onto something if the difference recruiters perceive between schools explicitly manifests itself as pay amount and employment percentage, but how do you know that these schools are sending students to the same firms? Meaning, while salary and percent employed might not vary significantly between schools (which we still don’t know), can you be sure that the prestige of a firm doesn’t affect recruiter perception? It’s also difficult to control for geography, size of alumni network, etc. There are variables muddying the water that you don’t have access to, so there is a clear need for more data to support your claim. You’re definitely taking strides in the right direction, though.

  • JohnnyM

    Question: Would you rather go to H/S and end up at a lower tier consulting firm (Deloitte, Strategy&) or go to a lower tier bschool and end up at MBB?

  • current_wharton_student

    You’re missing the point. Fine, broaden to “most of each of the top-10ish schools are going to the same group of employers.” This is true: most end up at some combination of the same consulting, finance, tech, etc. firms. My point, more broadly, was that marginal ranking isn’t the determining factor in outcomes, it’s individual. Therefore, an applicant should find what fits with his/her personality and financial situation. If you can’t get to where you want to go coming out of MIT, that’s your fault. Having gone to HBS instead probably wouldn’t have gotten you there either.

  • Showmethedata

    So if a piece of evidence doesn’t fit with your narrative you’re just going to dismiss it?

    Can you show us the evidence of what you are claiming? Including the fact that “better” employers grade harder which you imply in your response?

  • Consider cost of living folks

    salaries are higher because C is skewed banking and NY offers need to pay more because of the ridiculous cost of living. On the paper salaries vs real money saved after each year of work is what matters. Go ahead and earn 10k more in NYC and have a lower-middle class quality of life.

  • Not wharton

    “most of the class is going to the same banking and consulting jobs anyway” the portion of banking varies a lot between MBAs, and industry placement in general is still a major consideration to decide which MBA. Banking is still a major thing only in W, B and C. Tech recruits way more than banking in S, K, MIT and Haas. H has a thing for PE but not Banking.

  • TrueMeasure

    As for any evidence, do you have contrary evidence? Also, just look at the salary and employment data provided right in this article about the USN Rankings for my hypothetically suggested tier of Michigan, Duke, UCLA, Cornell, Yale, NYU, and Virginia. Guess what – hardly any discernible difference! Average Pay amongst this group is $144.236.86. Recruiters are paying grads at these schools almost the same. All except for Yale SOM who skews the average down with average Pay of $135,988 despite being ranked at #9 above the others? The recruiters are not rewarding the higher ranking and are not seeing a huge difference in this grouping broadly. Additionally, amongst this proposed Tier and looking at the data provided in this article from USN, an average of 80% of grads have jobs at graduation. Very similar amongst the tier except again for Yale who skews the average down with its 76% at graduation, again despite being ranked higher at #9. Recruiters just do not see a huge difference in this grouping. Cheers!

  • axg5068@gmail.com

    Couldn’t agree more.

  • C. Taylor

    Medians vs. Means:

    Medians are based on the average student. These inform the ‘typical’ admit what to expect as a grad. Even better, a program can additionally provide either 10th and 90th percentiles (middle 80%) or 25th and 75th percentiles (middle 50%). The range is usually only useful in the context of one of these broader measures. Yale and Oxford get gold stars here. Yale* provides 25th and 50th percentiles and Oxford provides a visual distribution for base salaries.

    Means are based on the average compensation. These are useful for examining the alumni class as a whole. For example, the Donor Relations office could use the mean to examine a class’s capacity to donate. In another context, a medical researcher would use the mean to examine appropriate dosages for a population.

    *Read the fine print on Yale’s Other Guaranteed Compensation before getting too excited as it presents a slightly wider measure than is typically employed. This is where data from ranking surveys becomes useful as they each apply a standard measure to the different programs.

  • Princeton Graduate

    A bunch of 28 to 35 year olds intensely debating the fluctuating rank of schools. Now I’ve seen it all.

  • Elizabeth

    John – I don’t like posting my surname and email address in public forums. Hope you can respect that.

    I did see the video you had posted on Wharton’s Semester in SF and found it very interesting. Thank you for posting. That being said, one video on a small piece of the Wharton offering doesn’t tip the scales back to neutral after what seems like years of negatively biased reporting on Wharton.

    The intent behind my original post is to simply ask why P&Q can’t just take this opportunity to report on the US News rankings in an neutral way. If you believe US News rankings to be fundamentally flawed, then please don’t report on how various schools move either up or down in a given year.

  • MBAObserver

    I don’t believe it was the original point but it is valid. I’m not sure why

  • Yaniv

    Its better to address the original point: why did he brought the european schools into a US school only ranking?!

  • elite

    all employers are not same
    more elite ones goto CBS and ae in NYC than the midwest ones which goto booth

  • MBAObserver

    Wharton is an incredible school, period. Incredible people have graduated from Wharton in the past, incredible people go to Wharton today, and incredible people will go there in the future. Whether it is number one or number three is irrelevant. As long as it gets its share of the top students and future stars, it will always be a top school

  • TrueMeasure

    Wow! Great post and I do sincerely appreciate the perspective. I certainly am not trying to anger you or anyone. Posting on this website is about sharing and exchanging ideas and many times such individual experiences cannot be cited or sourced but still can offer some insight or perspective to think about. Again, it is my experience, and one that is similar to many that have been posted on this website over the years. I know you are smart enough to recognize that this is what I have clarified in my posts now twice. Again, I appreciate the exchange and your views. Cheers!

  • Jerry

    He got from HBS. That is why this site always ranks HBS #1. HBS paid huge $$$ to whichever ranking websites. But their major rankings are very low. That is what should matter to students.

  • MBAObserver

    Yaniv, let us remain civil and stay on point. Politics has nothing to do with this. You have attacked with zero facts, reason, or qualification so please do not accuse others of acting like Trump. Please use logic or reason to make your argument instead of what is clearly your biased opinion. IMD and all the schools we are talking about are consistently ranked in the top 25 in the world and there is no reason for negativity. The danger is that potential applicants consider your incoherence and limit their options. Knowing as little as you do, it is certainly not your responsibility to be guiding anyone on MBA decisions.

  • Jerry

    Look at how many jumped up to devalue Wharton! Regardless who rank the school, Wharton is there on the peak waving others: Come on, you can do it! It doesn’t care you are the first because he is your father!

  • Jerry

    Agree 100%. Fit is most important to graduate student because you come to learn, not to show off. Us news does not include major rankings in its formula though. Wharton is number one in whichever ways. HBS takes brand name, but its majors are way behind top 10 schools.

  • NULL NULL

    Hi John, does the other guaranteed compensation section in school salary reports capture annual bonuses paid on top of base salaries? Also, I would argue that using median salary figures instead of averages or 90% range averages would hurt schools sending a large portion of the class into banking where the $130k base salary falls below or near the median of the class salary distribution, but add in the 50% to 100% bonus and bankers move above the median. At the same time the all-in compensation drags up the class average but doesn’t affect the median salary which it seems falls on someone at MBB/ consulting in most schools, with consultants receiving a sizable base salary but much smaller bonus. The argument is then that schools sending many people into finance with bonuses significantly higher than most non-finance industries are better assessed using average salaries or average salaries of the 90%, class range rather than median salaries, and the US News ranking somewhat compensates for that while regular school salary reports are flawed by not adequately capturing banking bonuses and relying on a single data point rather than assessing the distribution of salaries.

  • Ruben

    actually, employers were surveyed by US News and gave Booth a 4.5 and Columbia a 4.1

  • Yaniv

    “FYI: Warren is ‘Yaniv’, aka ‘Jim25’, aka ‘RankingExpert’, aka etc., etc.” so, you group all those against you in the same group! is this new trumpism in business schools? I can see now why you desperately defend Ralf and his strange behavior..like minded .. You should remember that YOU were the one who brought these european schools here in this only US school article. You are trying hard to make sure prospective applicants see IMD and INSEAD beside Harvard, Wharton, and Stanford. You wanted that, kind of visual marketing.. But, I assure you that almost all prospective applicants are much smarter than you think and understand the huge gap in education quality, students quality, professors quality, career perspective, and the falling economy of europe. In few months, the whole EU will collapse due to this new wave of extremism, racism and isolation desire.. this will be reflected badly on european business education.. The only exception is the INSEAD singapore, which in fact an asian institution..

  • Ruben

    so?…

  • TrueStatisticalMeasure

    I appreciate that you have your enthusiasm and unique insight, and I don’t want to dampen your willingness to have an engaging back and forth. I just hope for everyone’s sake that you will think more critically in the future before making sweeping claims that could inform other people’s decisions.

  • TrueStatisticalMeasure

    *borne witness. C’mon, I know you are smarter.

    Do you really think that your anecdotal experience is representative of all recruiters’ experiences? Hypotheses supported with representative data are welcome – please find data that is representative of the overall recruiter experience (or even just representative of the recruiters who target the schools you listed) and please stop sharing your pseudo-science as gospel.

  • Snowflake Patrol

    UChicago is much more prestigious than Penn / Wharton any day and Penn is definitely on the decline while UChicago, both business and undergrad, is on the upswing. Penn doesn’t even come close to UChicago in overall stature as a university. Indeed, as incoming Booth Dean Rajan from Stanford says, “I am thrilled to have the chance to be dean at what is unquestionably the greatest academic business school.” Harvard has been on the decline for years and has lost significant ground over the past ten years in undergraduate standing, while UChicago has risen much faster in popularity over the past decade (undergrad and business) than any other university. You old fogeys are stuck in the past and out of touch. Stanford was a second-rate community college until the 1950s–and UChicago is rising much faster than Stanford these days and has always been one of the top universities in the world since its founding. (Too bad Stanford grads can’t win Nobel prizes unlike UChicago’s.)

  • ROI is flawed as a ranking

    Forbes ROI is not a metric worth a ranking. Although interesting, ranking by you may obtain absurds like a school that have lower income students pre MBA but ok post MBA salary stats being very high in the ranking.

  • If you really want evidence of my bias or campaign against Wharton, you should see this video which accompanied my last story on Wharton before my review of this ranking:

    https://youtu.be/aj8K7BHG8VM

  • elite

    yes but employers don’t think so.. cause employers care about overall personality versuss GMAT scores
    The starting salary for CBS is much higher than booth and kellogg and tuck
    and look at the admit rates
    Booth is 24%
    CBS 14%
    anyone with a half a brain can tell u, more people want CBS because CBS get better paying jobs than Booth and I am not even talking startups

  • Wow

    I agree that John seems to be biased against Wharton and in favor of Booth – not just from today but many articles in the past as well. This response from John tells me Elizabeth is definitely right. But watch this get deleted.

  • TrueMeasure

    Eureka – Yes that is right – I am actually sharing a real world experience that many on this website have also shared over the years! I know that is just crazy right? C’mon I know you are smarter and can recognize that lots of professionals have born witness to similar trends at their own respective workplaces. The MBA aspirants have one perspective about the differences in GMAT scores and GPAs, while recent grads learn that such differences are kind of meaningless as they now work alongside colleagues who attended many different bschools that effectively end in a similar result. This is really not ground breaking news…It has been discussed many times on this site and others. Sorry that we disagree but I respect your opinion. Cheers!

  • oreily

    Let me get this straight. You work at a “publicly traded firm” and thus this qualifies you to speak on behalf of all recruiters because you’ve recruited a handful of students? Not to say there is a difference between most recruits from 1–>15 schools, but c’mon, be smarter.

  • TiersNotRankings

    Sorry but that’s just wrong. Stanford is clearly on par with Harvard in terms of offering students the opportunity to achieve the best outcomes of any b-schools. Maybe Harvard is a hair’s length above Stanford simply because of the international brand name cache, but practically speaking they are above the rest.

  • PS

    I agree. This article is supposed to be about the US News rankings release, yet more than half of the article lays out an argument for why Wharton should not be #1 and Stanford should. It’s fine to explain what the US News methodology is and why S is placed at a disadvantage as a result of the methodology. However, this entire article seems extremely biased agains W. I mean HBS benefits from this rankings methodology too. Why is W singled out? The reality is that different rankings use different methodologies. There is nothing inherently wrong with using average salary instead of the median or taking into account employment rates. And your adjustment for the student response rate assumes that all of those students weren’t able to get a job. There’s no evidence to back that up. I agree that students who did not respond are more likely to be less ecstatic with their experience than those who did respond, but it seems pretty ridiculous to just assume that they’re all unemployed after graduating from W.

  • Gerrard

    I think you need to look at the breadth and history of the school’s relevance in the business arena. For instance, Wharton is an elite brand for undergrads, MBA, and EMBA levels. That translates into an end-to-end brand. Furthermore, its demonstrated strength in a number of different academic areas is often overlooked (as it is widely considered the undisputed #1 in the language of business: FINANCE). Wharton has been and should be considered at the very top…thus, I’m not surprised by #1 USN and #2 FT. Forbes, as John spells out, looks at rankings in a very specific, overly narrow way.

  • Hmmm

    You aren’t alone in this just saying in the grand scheme of bschools, Tier 1 would be at least the T25 — cue the gasps.

  • That’s total nonsense. Get real. If you really believe what you are saying, tell us who you are. Don’t hide behind some anonymous identity.

  • Elizabeth

    It’s unfortunate to see P&Q continue their Wharton smear campaign. How about a “congratulations” instead of wild speculation about nefarious plots to manipulate rankings?

    While all school ranking systems are wonky, US News is largely considered to be the most credible. Guess the results don’t fit neatly into the P&Q narrative of a Wharton on the decline…

  • MBAObserver

    I’m not trying to tier all of the MBA programs. I’m trying to tier the top programs.

  • TrueMeasure

    Fine points and I agree that the P&Q composite ranking is a particularly strong and useful measurement tool. Would you consider giving a greater weighting to Forbes then it has had in the past? I do believe that ROI is the critical metric of a significant % of MBA candidates. The short term versus long term ROI difference is an important distinction but Forbes best captures imo what matters most to a likely majority of MBA aspirants…
    Cheers

  • TrueMeasure

    I work at a publicly traded firm and I speak from what I know and witness at our own company – and there is no difference in the tier perception as I described. Forget USN “data”. Trust in actual world results. To that end, the best evidence I can share is that of my own professional experience.

  • 574=small sample size?

    and you’re implying that, say, 6 high compensation figures across 574 reports is going to dramatically sway the #s??? let’s say these 5 report 300k in compensation. even then, if the average is 150k, those reports would only impact the compensation numbers by just over 1k (i.e. negligible effect). of course, medians are valuable to look at too, but they’re not inherently more valuable than averages. you typically would look at both in a proper analysis.

  • Hmmm

    With this logic (and many others) there must be >1000 tiers then for all MBA programs — doesn’t seem sensible.

  • C. Taylor

    Depends on what criteria you value and in how you value it.

    If you discount the diff in age of at graduation. you get H/S IMD/INSEAD/B/W/LBS, Sloan/Tuck/C, K/Haas.

    Adjust IMD up one cluster to compensate for a strong recovery in Europe or down one cluster to compensate for worsening conditions in Europe.

  • C. Taylor

    FYI: Warren is Yaniv aka Jim25 aka RankingExpert, aka etc., etc.

  • MBAObserver

    You are missing the point entirely. Schools go up and down because metrics fluctuate year over year. Stanford was number 1 a couple years ago, number 2 last year, and is now number 4. Does this mean it is not world class anymore? No, and if it drops to number 5 the following year it still will not matter. IMD is not the number 1 school in the world but, along with several other European programs, it is certainly world class. Also, if you think reading 3 P&Q articles means that you know the school then you would not get into any of the schools mentioned

  • Jim25

    The US NEWS ranking is for US schools only, why the hell you guys bring foreign schools here!?

  • Yaniv

    can you explain why the continuous decline since 2014? There are three articles here in P&Q about the school problems with its full time MBA! I am not a rejected applicant nor a former employee. I am interested in MBAs in general, and hate the bad performance. (Why the decline in all rankings?, I’d love to hear from you)

  • MBAObserver

    Yaniv, bias has no place in rankings and your facts are just plain wrong. Given that you “know” the director and claim to understand the program I am assuming that you were either a rejected applicant or an employee that was let go. Grow up and stop belittling a school as esteemed as IMD. As someone who has lived in both the US and Europe I am intimately aware of the top programs and IMD is certainly one of them. LBS, INSEAD, IMD, and IE are class programs

  • Ojo

    Booth already has more capital resources than Wharton, in an absolute and per capita basis. It means better faculty, services and more scholarships, which attract better students. Wharton gaming the rankings with their 92% employment response rate (evidence of low student engagement with the school) will only serve to weaken it further as it masks problems and doesn’t compel alumni to step-up with money.

  • MBAObserver

    When it comes down to it I also agree that this comes down to tiers. Different metrics yield different rankings but the one thing that cannot be immediately changed is the alumni, reputation, and pedigree of each school. I think schools generally fall into the following tiers T1 – Harvard, Stanford T2 – Wharton, Kellogg, Booth, LBS T3 – Rest of M7, INSEAD, Yale, IMD, Haas T4 – Stern, Duke, Cornell, Virginia, Michigan

  • I sort of agree with you. Generally, the ranking is considered the most popular, if only because of the wealth of data it produces every year. Business schools wouldn’t be nearly as transparent to applicants and students without U.S. News knocking on their doors every year asking them to complete a fairly extensive questionnaire that yields highly valuable information to prospective students. That said, while I, too, like the purity and simplicity of the Forbes ranking, determining the quality of an education is more than a quick dollars-and-cents metric on return on investment. Forbes is measuring the short-term ROI, not the long-term ROI of the degree and it is relying on that short-term ROI measure as a proxy for quality, without regard to the quality stats of incoming students, the views of peers and recruiters (both of which I question largely because of how U.S. News does these surveys, and whether or not a person is actually employed. Better to have all and to smartly discount each for their flaws. Which is why I love our ranking. In one place, you can see how each school fared year-over-year on the five most influential lists and make up your own mind.

  • Yaniv

    It is no longer a world class! You need to check again. It lost many excellent professors and administrators. The program (the full time program) is in steady decline since 2014. In all rankings, all publications, all threats, IMD MBA is missing it, and fewer people every year apply there. This year, applications barely reached 204 applications! thats tell you how deep it fallen.. The main problem is with its weird director, and his self loving and inflated ego style. He is terrible colleagues to work with, and have no achievements at all, and most importantly not being liked by his peers in other schools or in the business education world.

  • “Classic”

    Polaroid is a classic corporation. Things change over time.

  • oreily?

    What evidence do you have re: “recruiters are not seeing the difference”. Your feelings are not a valid data point.

  • MBAObserver

    While a world class program I do not believe IMD ranks along with H or S. Along with Insead and LBS, I would rate it somewhere after Kellogg and before Stern.

  • TrueMeasure

    Despite a few places in rankings most recruiters and candidates consider UVA, Duke, Cornell, NYU, Michigan, UCLA, and even Yale as similarly tiered. Rankings tools Amd SOMers will disagree but recruiters are not yet seeing the difference that USN rankings folks are. This is not to say that Yale MBAs don’t have better GMAT scores than the other same-tier schools listed – they do, but that and a nickel right…

  • TrueMeasure

    Why again do so many people hold the USN rankings to be the best? It seems to me that USN is just as fraught with peril as all of the others. As others suggest, not sure why tiers are not used because many differences are truly insignificant? I always thought the purity of Forbes rankings were admirable in that they measure what most MBA candidates truly care about – return.

  • reality

    That 7-school tier is oversimplifying. UCLA, Darden, and Cornell infrequently rank higher than Yale, Michigan, Duke, and NYU.

    In the last 20 years, Haas and Yale have replaced Ross and Fuqua in the Top 10. Yale’s got the top Ivy League brand, Duke’s got its reputable rankings for undergrad and other grad programs, and Michigan’s brand makes job placement geographically agnostic.

  • lol no

    your comment is silly. counterexample: for undergrad there is a thing called HYPS. cross admits overwhelmingly choose Harvard/Stanford over Yale/Princeton yet HYPS is very much a thing.
    and btw the only school people might consider turning down HBS,GSB for is Wharton (and there is a small number that does that)

  • HSW is a thing

    lol HSW is a thing…just do a basic google search to convince yourself….oh and fyi there are some very finance/Wall-street – focused people who would pick Wharton over S. that said of course H/S wins. but Wharton is the only school people would consider turning down H/S for and it is preferred over any non-H/S school.

  • HWC

    While I like Cornell I have to agree with emad on the point about Johnson having too many programs and its complicated structure.. I mean just look at Johnson’s new logo.. it’s got a big Johnson, a small Johnson with Cornell sandwiched between.. what a mess.. I think they blew a chance to move away from Johnson and rebrand as Cornell (then again it’s hard to say no to $150mil). it should focus on its 2 year full time program to establish it’s reputation before branching out to cash cow programs such as emba..

  • HSW

    bitter Boothie….Booth managed to surpass Wharton one time in the history of the rankings and it went to your head…tsts

  • lol no

    your sources are wrong. wharton destroys booth on cross admits.

  • current_wharton_student

    As a current Wharton student: this doesn’t matter. Relative year-over-year rankings are meaningless and no one cares about them. (In face, they’re probably thrown in just to sell more magazines from headlines like these.) Pick any top 10-ish school and most of the class is going to the same banking and consulting jobs anyway. Find the school that seems like a good fit at a good price. If you make life decisions based on a couple spots in a US News ranking, you’re doing it wrong.

  • [C. Taylor]^(-1)

    “E.g. IMD/H/S” is hard to swallow !

  • Kellogg2016

    Kellogg should be a top 3 school next year, it is the only top school where people actually have social and leadership skills, and where people actually enjoy their time there.

  • somsquared

    Cornell is not making any effort to increase its stats – with a GMAT stagnant at 700 and below and a sub <3.4 GPA I don't see Cornell breaking out of the 16-18 range anytime soon.

  • That’s true. In fact, Stanford boasts the highest percentage of graduating students who launch companies right out of the school. Last year, 15% of the graduating MBAs did their own startups. At the majority of schools, it’s generally 5% who strike out on their own so Stanford is three times the average rate for entrepreneurship. Those students are not counted in the employment statistics. Neither are students who are sponsored and return to their employers.

  • C. Taylor

    In addition to those seeking jobs at startups, Stanford gets more than its fair share of risk takers who strike out on their own. This is good for its future donation base, but perhaps not so good for its students’ immediate job prospects.

    Some start off doing their own thing, do decently, and are happy with it, but are not necessarily entrepreneurs in the sense most probably think of. Perhaps these will end up late starters? As long as they are fine with it, I suppose it’s OK.

    That said, it doesn’t take an MBA to write an app, etc. and not make millions. The advantage might be exposure if they happen on something that clicks. And they’ll mostly have a fairly decent job to eventually fall back on.

    The person who misses out is the more usual Jane Doe who is better off following a traditional track for five to ten years and then moving on an idea with a firmer grounding. That is;

    5-10 years work experience, post-MBA >> explores ideas on the side >> initiates part-time involvement on the side >> moves to full-time startup if and when it makes sense and funding is broadly available.

  • Anon

    There is NO such thing as HSW, stop trying to make it happen random W alumni/current students. No one in the world would pick W over H/S which means it’s in a different tier.

  • um…. okay….

    except your analysis (specifically on averages not being meaningful when we’re talking about an 850 person student body – yes, 1-2 high salaries could significantly impact things if we were talking about a 30 person student body but we’re not – and the assumption that those who don’t fill out a survey must be jobless) are completely unfounded. soooooo it looks like your “messaging”‘ is pretttttty biased. oh, and the last thing about higher %s of students being employed at graduation being meaningless because it just means students at stanford are just being more selective about opportunities is editorial at best — perhaps that’s true, perhaps it’s not — but it’s definitely not something you can know without individually interviewing a representative sample of students at each of these schools. your analysis is just full of a TON of assumptions that are shaky at best.

  • RankingExpert

    My friend: Who is Warren?! I don’t like the headless chicken behavior!
    anyway: We were talking about your imaginative blocks! and how flexible they are that you feel comfortable to insert your IMD and INSEAD just to make them visible with Harvard and Stanford! readers are smarter than that.

  • Truth

    Look at the last 6 years of GMAT scores. S, W, H, B have clearly distanced themselves from the pack in the quality of students they can admit.

  • Rankings Expert & Analyst

    I love ranking season.

    1. John and his bias but “I’m really not biased” stance against Wharton (maybe it’s unconscious?). Seeing the title, first thought: “John is definitely not happy.” You may claim you’re not biased but, honestly, if I were asked P&Q’s least favorite program, Wharton jumps to mind.

    2. Maybe you didn’t get into W but got into B. Maybe you got into B and didn’t get into W. Maybe you got into all the M7 with full rides. In 20 years when the people you’ve pegged yourself to (which I’m sure you will because that’s what ambitious humans do best) are enjoying their massive successes and you’re likely just doing OK, you can rest well knowing that your school was #X in the 2018 US News Ranking or part of the holy trinity: L/O/L

  • Orange1

    I have advocated tiers forever but John say that people want individual rankings. There really is no different among the schools in your fifth line.

  • anon

    Yea, by far. Look, at stock pitch competitions you’ll have 75% of finalists be Wharton and 25% Columbia. Booth and NYU are no shows. Columbia has a value investing program that I heard it was pretty good if you’re into finance.

    The finance rankings are in respect to the faculty – NYU’s A. Damadoran is perhaps the best valuation professor in the world. Anyways, just an opinion. As a grad, I can tell you that all this bickering and fighting doesn’t matter. You can go to Fuqua and be head of the largest company in the world, or you can be a Wharton grad and be CEO/CFO of Google. There really isn’t a limit.

  • nonsenseranking

    This ranking is sich nonsense
    Booth Admit rate 23% , CBS admit rate 14%
    Booth salary avg 147K, CBS avg salary 150K
    which means more top employers are at CBS and much more people want to get into CBS than booth
    But Booth is ranked higher?
    No wonder no one reads the US news
    Outside this site, most people in biz read the WSJ or the Financial times

  • MAA

    Funny how you say that Columbia beats Booth in Finance, but Columbia can’t even beat Stern in the US News Finance rankings, which are: 1. Wharton, 2. Booth, 3. Stern, 4. Columbia

  • C. Taylor

    Hi Warren. Don’t forget IMD and INSEAD were your programs of choice–right up until they rejected you.

  • RankingExpert

    It must extremely flexible block the one that allows you to put IMD with HBS and SGB!

  • C. Taylor

    Stanford is a small school with a very large applicant pool of many exceptional people. With an average GMAT of 737, stellar stats are the norm. An applicant really needs something special in her background to bump her odds higher.

    Ultimately rejected from Stanford? Really not a big deal.

  • Outsideobserver

    P&Q doing a great service for the community by calling out and keeping bschools honest. If Wharton doesnt shape up, they’ll be the Enron of Bschools.

  • StratifiedRankings

    I’d respectfully disagree on that. It’s true that the school has diverted some focus from its core MBA program (and there are admittedly some downsides to doing that). However, it’s not all bad news.

    The NYC TechMBA is a huge investment and from what I understand, the long term vision is to enable full time MBA student to spend 1 or 2 semesters there as well! This could open up a whole new range of possiblities, experiences and career opportunities.

    As for college of business, much of the criticism comes from alumni of the 3 schools who basically didn’t want to lose their individual identity. I believe the current students are in more of a “wait and see” mode. Too early to dismiss it as a bad move!

    The final effect of all these changes may not be immediately visible, but there’s a good chance the school outpaces their immediate competitors in the coming years!

  • C. Taylor

    Vanderbilt is great. Think of schools in general blocks, rather than individual ranks. E.g. IMD/H/S, INSEAD/B/W/LBS, Sloan/Tuck/C, and K/Haas all together form a block of the best programs in the world, using the data I go by. Other people prefer other data.

    The further down the ranking you get, the less you can rely on the ranking to decently inform. P&Q deserves a shout out for highlighting this in the above article on the USN ranking. The good news is, this year’s USN top 25* as a whole is as excellent a block as a ranking might provide. I would add Rice.

    *Published by USN in 2017 and called the ‘2018’ ranking as it will be most useful for people applying for entry in the fall of 2018.

  • Pointless Arguments

    Current M7 candidate here and not sure why this discussion between the Top 5-10 schools is even relevant, I mean we are talking about the best .01% of programs.

    Guessing most of this discussion is from those who are not even enrolled/graduated from any of these programs, because outside of friendly rivalries no one cares once you’re there.

  • fgp

    How is $andy doing? And oh, where did you get your MBA from?

  • Authorisajoke

    Lol the author just hates on Wharton – what a joke. Let’s face it, in finance nothing comes close, and Columbia beats Booth, and they both beat S,H. Not everybody wants to go through 2 years of case methods.

    So funny how the author is surprised about W being number 1 – what a joke! …. has he read the FT rankings? W has won more number 1 than any other school! Whether H is better than W or S, depends on what you want to learn! But the notion that W is a complete anomaly and misrepresented data is a joke. BTW, the top tier at W, go for jobs in the $400k total comp range (PE, HF) since that bonus is not guaranteed, they lower the total comp salary. This of course happens in H and S… but much, much less at other schools.

  • emad

    Cornell Johnson is respected school but it is in the 17 ~ 22 range. Hard to conclude it into the next M7 as there are better schools such as Duke, Darden, NYU, UCLA, Michigan, UNC, and Texas, all are better business schools than Johnson, by almost all measures. Johnson has a problem with focus and support its flagship program students, two year full time MBA has been marginalized recently by the school leadership, a lot of other programs, one year MBA, many executive MBAs, cornell tech mba, all these things caused distraction and weakened the two year MBA. Students there are not happy. and top all that by the recent change and creating the Cornell College of Business, there will be huge amount of identity conflicts and chaos in supporting programs, there are lots of programs out there..

  • StratifiedRanking

    Why would you gloss over Cornell Johnson in the remaining schools?! After Top 10, I’d say the tiers are:
    1) NYU/ Ross
    2) Darden/ Duke
    3) UCLA/ Johnson
    4) UNC/ Texas/ Tepper

  • Give credit to CBS

    Columbia is a classic business school, always been elite unlike Booth or Kellogg, so should go up – rankings are not everything

  • You need to read these stories more carefully. We are taking a broader look at pay in comparing total comp across the schools on a median basis. And for your info, if you read these stories, you would know that the Wharton pay numbers are based on 574 reports–not the 750 you are claiming.

  • JohnAByrne

    Evan, That’s not true at all. I don’t hate Wharton. In fact, I greatly admire the school. Don’t blame the messenger for pointing out the reasons why Wharton moved into first place.

  • Evan

    Wow this author HATES Wharton!! lol

  • True Story

    in recent years, Stanford focused on numbers resulted to a weird classes and mentally questionable grads! Many noticed the unusual low rate of leadership and communication skills of Stanford recent grads. The school should take corrective actions soon…

  • emad

    well. this ranking makes sense as a whole, since it includes the USC Marshall into the top 25. It is pretty obvious that the top ten is M7 plus Haas, Tuck, and Yale. and the other M7` includes: Duke, Virginia, Michigan, UCLA, NYU, Texas, and UNC.

  • proffunk

    How come Vanderbilt keeps dropping in the rankings? They seem to have an excellent flexible program with lots of options for concentrations and also high salary for their graduates. Am I missing something?

  • GSBewithMe

    Rather than engage in the Booth vs Wharton flame war, I have a question.

    I’m a round two interviewee at Stanford GSB. I have a 780 GMAT, a slightly non-traditional career background and goal (not strictly entrepreneurial but I hope to enter an industry that MBAs don’t typically enter; the pay is lower than finance and consulting). My GPA in the 3.6s (a touch below GSB median).

    How screwed am I after these rankings? Does GSB make a concerted effort to make up ground by selecting a very high-GPA and high-GMAT cohort that will steer into traditional post-MBA fields like finance and consulting? Or will it evaluate my application independently of these rankings?

  • hmm….

    your sources are wrong. no way there’s a 50/50 cross admit rate between wharton and booth. maybe between booth and columbia. or booth and kellogg.

  • StopGrindingTheAxe

    this article is ridiculously biased against wharton. the argument that averages aren’t representative because, unlike medians, they can be skewed by a few high or low salaries is BS. we’re talking about a school with 850 students (let’s say 750 report) — 4 students with really high salaries aren’t skewing the data. the real reason that these averages show wharton with higher compensation than median salaries is because it looks at COMPENSATION – not just salaries. in other words, it includes signing bonuses. given that many wharton students go into finance, much of the compensation (especially for banking) comes in the form of signing and then annual bonuses. i think it’s totally fair to capture that. i’m not saying wharton “deserves” the #1 ranking (who really “deserves” any ranking? these schools are more similar than they are different anyways) – just saying that Mr. John A. Byrne (the author here) clearly has a bias against wharton.

  • hmm

    The desperation from Wharton… is so palpable. Ha ha ha. 85% is just as good as 99% reporting. Ha ha ha ha ha

    Harvard is the only number one in this ranking. Wharton is a pretender.

  • Hahaha

    That’s why Wharton had to cheat their employment stats!

  • Hahaha

    It is HSB, not HSW. W is so yesterday’s news they had to hide their unemployed as non-reporting.

  • slayorr

    I don’t disagree with much of anything you said. With that being said, W and B are closer to peer schools than either compared to any other top schools being discussed.

  • actually

    per my sources at booth, the cross admit rate last year between booth and wharton was 50-50. it’s pretty much common knowledge now that its H/S at the top with W effectively tied with B at this point

  • not quite

    lol keep telling yourself that. the true ranking is HSW, the rest lead by Booth.

  • slayer

    it is HSW not HSWB. Specifically, HS top, W half a notch down and B a notch down from that. Booth simply does not have the cachet in business circles that HSW have. Also HSW have been ranked at the top for decades and decades, Booth is not really there yet. It has been doing phenomenally lately but it is not yet considered fully on par with HSW in general perception.

    When it manages to hold on to the top 3 for a decade or two and when cross admit split with Wharton approaches 50-50, and when it develops a name recognition similar to HSW then it will be rightfully on par with HSW. Until then HSW remains.

  • Evan

    Why is Wharton tied with Harvard if all of the GMAT, salary, and employment data for Wharton is better?

  • hmm

    That is the true ranking anyway. H>B>S>W>K.

  • HarvardWinsAgain

    Wow. Wharton did it!!!

    In the past it manipulated its GMAT, now its manipulating its salary stats.

    They will do just about anything, dont they? No class at all.

    Tsk tsk tsk

  • JDdude

    This doesn’t relate to MBAs but I think this speaks to weird USNEWS methodology results this year – for the first time ever (I think) GTown Law is out of the T14 – I can only imagine the drama in law circles right now lol..

  • Anon

    Yes, HSWB. Based upon placement and salary data, W and B are more similar to each other than any other schools with HS and MK on the sides. Very much peer schools if there is such a thing.

  • rankings2017

    Agree with the tiers and let me expand the rest

    Harvard/Stanford
    Wharton
    Booth/Kellogg/MIT
    Columbia/Tuck/Haas
    Michigan/Yale/Duke/Darden/Cornell/NYU/UCLA
    CMU/UNC/Texas

  • b-school

    still HSW are top. Booth comes after the top 3.

  • oh please…

    John get real….Wharton is breathing a sigh of relief that it managed to surpass Booth?!? Wharton has always been ranked above or equal to Booth except for last year. The Wharton name is much much stronger than the Booth name. Wharton has the biggest research output of any b-school. There is a reason it is H/S/W and not H/S/W/B…

  • Anon

    I greatly enjoyed reading your follow-up article that pointed out the correct ranking this year should be H, B, S, W if USNWR corrected the data for Wharton’s skewed reporting.

  • dont fool us

    Stanford is in 4, not in the top tier

  • TiersNotRankings

    This is why it’s much more useful to think of schools as being in tiers rather than rankings. Common knowledge would suggest its something like this:

    Harvard/Stanford (in a tier of their own)
    Wharton (half step between H/S and the following)
    Booth/Kellogg/MIT
    Columbia/Tuck/Haas

    and so on.

  • DEEGEE

    This is going to be fun theatre on P&Q. I’ll grab my popcorn

  • somsquared

    weird how Duke has such a low GMAT but is ranked above Darden