The Anti-MBA Business School: Johns Hopkins

by John A. Byrne on

John Hopkins Carey School occupies four floors in a modern skyscraper on Baltimore's Inner Harbor

Johns Hopkins Carey School occupies four floors in a modern skyscraper on Baltimore's Inner Harbor

In the fall of 2008 when Lehman Brothers went kaput and the economy plunged into a deep recession, Yash Gupta was scampering around the country trying to drum up support for a new business school at Johns Hopkins University. It could not have been the best time to enlist believers in yet another school that would pump out even more MBAs. After all, some critics already were pointing fingers for the collapse of the financial markets at the business schools and their graduates.

But Gupta, a life-long business educator who took the job to become dean of the B-school start-up, says the crisis gave him unusual license to rethink MBA education from scratch. “The meltdown helped us immensely because people were ready to question the orthodoxy,” says Dean Gupta. “We decided early on that we could not be a prominent business school by doing what every other school does. I don’t think I could have done that in 2006.”

The result: The Johns Hopkins Carey Business School, which entered its charter class of 88 students in September, may well be the first business school for anti-MBAs. The school’s tagline, “Where business is taught with humanity in mind,” isn’t merely an advertising slogan. It’s central to Gupta’s belief that MBA education had gone off the rails and needed to get back in touch with humanity.

“WE PRODUCED MASTERS OF FINANCIAL ENGINEERING, PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T HAVE HEART AND SOUL.”

“Over the years,” he says, “I came to the conclusion that we leaned too hard on the science of business. The MBA became a degree in methodology. We produced masters of financial engineering, people who didn’t have heart and soul. I’ve been thinking for years that we were headed in the wrong direction.”

Gupta should know. When he took the job as Carey’s first permanent dean in January of 2008, he had already led three other business schools for the past 14 years. While dean at the University of Southern California’s Marshall School of Business from 2004 to 2006, he developed an innovation-focused MBA curriculum. But running a school with entrenched faculty and a host of traditions and rituals didn’t allow him the chance to pull out a clean sheet of paper and rethink business education.

He had the benefit of doing a start-up at Johns Hopkins, world renown for its schools of medicine and international affairs. It was one of only four elite universities—Princeton, Brown and CalTech–left without a business school and a full-time MBA program. The last major university to launch a business school in the U.S. was Yale in 1976.

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  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/taymans/ Greg Spielberg

    Good luck! Very interested so see how the dual-teacher model works out.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/andy84/ Andrew

    It is going to be interesting to see the employment outcomes of the charter class.

  • http://www.wallstreetoasis.com WallStreetOasis

    Hmm looks like an MBA programme for the softies… I

  • Franz Thompson

    Hopkins isn’t traditionally known for their “softness”. I’m sure those kids are getting a work out. The international and discovery projects look very unique. Couple an MBA with exposure to Hopkins’ traditional strengths in medicine and engineering, and you have a powerful combination…

  • no-softies

    not a good idea to be anti-finance or anti-quants. Rather, helping quants and finance get better would do all parties good.

  • A. Nonymous

    As a Class of 2010 graduate from the evening program, I assure you that this is not a program for softies. Quite the opposite. Carey’s program is all about doing things and making stuff, not just manipulating numbers on a spreadsheet (although there is a fair bit of that as well)

    Many businss schools preach that commerce solves problems, but few actually challenge students to go out and solve them. Carey is one of those few.

  • Fred E

    Why aren’t more Americans in the first class? Carey cannot live on the Hopkins reputation forever. Job placement will be key for determining if the program is a success.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/saritalr/ Sarah

    As someone who has first hand undergrad/grad (not MBA) experience at Hopkins, I tend to see Carey’s future through an optimistic lens. Sure the business school doesn’t have the name recognition of any of its competitors. But I can almost guarantee this will change over time – particularly given the resources that Hopkins can afford to throw at the program.

    Granted I’m not applying to Carey, but I certainly think that going there would likely yield a very positive return in the future. I’d be willing to bet there is a substantial amount of fin aid available for good candidates, and attending the school now (when entry isn’t as competitive) might mean that you’ve gotten in on the ground floor of a program that is top 20 in the next 10 years.

    Also, any strengthening of the MBA opportunities around DC can only be a good thing.

  • MBA

    They have a great MBA program, my brother just finished Dec 10 w/ a 3.9 GPA landed a six figure job at the largest chip maker managing nearly 100 million dollar budget. I think JHU will end up knocking off a lot of top programs in the rankings.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/wexzilla/ James Wexler

    Accepted at JHU eMBA , Ross and Marshall. Love the JHU mission statement, program schedule and brand; however, I have some concerns that Hopkins has yet to establish a reputation due to the program being brand new. I am confident that it will be a top-tier school in years to come. However, have short-term apprehension.

    Can anyone offer insight into the perception by employers of the JHU MBA ?

    Thank you,

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/jbyrne/ John A. Byrne

    James,

    I wouldn’t ordinarily pull out rankings for my choice of a business school, but it is worth pointing out that you’ve been accepted to two schools that would widely be considered to be in the top 10 for EMBA programs. Ross is ranked seventh by BusinessWeek, eighth by U.S. News & World Report, 15th by The Wall Street Journal, and 31st by The Financial Times. Marshall is ranked fifth by BusinessWeek, 22nd by U.S. News & World Report, and 24th by The Wall Street Journal. Johns Hopkins, because it is a brand new program, isn’t ranked at all and probably won’t be for quite some time. So the advantage clearly is with Ross and Marshall. I greatly respect and admire what has happened at Johns Hopkins, as you can easily tell from my profile of the school’s full-time MBA program, but I would urge you to go to an established program, especially when you have had the good fortune to be accepted into two of the best in the world.

  • Carey MBA Class 2011

    I gained a 100% ROI with a high six figure salary as a Executive Vice President & Chief Financial Officer (social enterprise) primarily due to my having almost completed my MBA degree at JHU Carey. Of course being a license CPA helped, but the true value came from the upcoming degree and marketplace perception of JHU brand…you bring value, you get value!

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    FWIW, let me play devil’s advocate: You can get quant and management skills from a top MPA program; and you can also travel and focus on global NGO management as well. If one is interested in NGO or nonprofit management, or health care management, wouldn’t it make more sense to get an MPA from a top program like Harvard or Duke — especially since you could also take management electives from their top business programs to round-out your well-regarded MPA? Also … Washington, DC is an extremely competitive job market, to understate matters. How, and to what extent, will a Hopkins MBA give you a leg up in the DC market, when your competitors for nonprofit or policy management jobs are going to have MPAs or master’s degrees in IR from some extremely well-connected schools like Harvard, Yale, and Georgetown (and Hopkins’ SAIS), or possibly JDs from some top-drawer law schools?

  • MBA

    As I mentioned before, my brother went through the program at Johns Hopkins Carey and he landed exactly where he wanted to be in corporate finance. If you are looking for an established program then you should go there. Hopkins has a 10 year lease with their school of business inside of Legg Masons office in the Baltimore Harbor. The school of business occupies about 3 floors and the largest classroom is a small one at that. However, everywhere we go even amongst Ivy leaguers people ask him how he got into Johns Hopkins, and they want to know more about his progress. With that said, Johns Hopkins will take sometime to establish a name in the MBA realm, but the name alone will open more doors than your local “accredited” Business School.

    Keep in mind perception that perception is reality, and the perception of Johns Hopkins is very strong.

  • MBA

    CORRECTION… *If you’re looking for an ESTABLISHED program, you should NOT go there….

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    My goal here is not to dump on the Hopkins program for sport, but rather, to look past the marketing to see if the hype is warranted.

    @MBA, when you say “perception is reality,” how are you conceptualizing the perception of what is prestigious about a school? Musn’t one differentiate between lay prestige and prestige in the corporate world, among hiring managers in any given industry? Just because Hopkins turns out good doctors and IR specialists, will recruiters will gravitate towards Hopkins MBAs for finance and management jobs? That’s quite an assumption.

    Further, if perception is indeed reality, there are two posters, @WallStreetOasis and @no-softies, who believe that a Hopkins MBA would be soft on quant. How do you discount that perception so readily — who’s to say that hiring managers and partners won’t share Sarah’s sentiments, to some degree: Nice school, nice idea, ain’t touching their MBA program, looking for something (someone) more established — a safer bet?

    Sincere congrats to your brother, and good on him, but is he an outlier? I thought the entire point of Hopkins was to not churn out people who are interested in corporate finance. So again, what is their niche, if not a kindler, gentler MBA?

    My impression of Hopkins is that, in time, they will settle into a ranking about where Georgetown is. I disagree that the DC region needs another business school. If anything, the region is oversaturated with professional schools.

  • MBA

    To provide a little bit of background, the Business School has been around for years as a part-time program. Hopkins inaugural full-time MBA (Global MBA) class just began in the fall and won’t be graduating until 2012. With that said, this puts Carey on the path to accreditation (since a school has to have a full-time program in order to be considered for accreditation). In addition, the schools dean is on the board of the AACSB, which of course will ensure that Johns Hopkins will be accredited soon thereafter.

    Personally, I’ve spoke to Johns Hopkins Carey School of Business, and this is their take on it, you don’t go to Carey if you’re intent is to get on Wall Street. However, how easy it was for them to access Legg Mason executives, since their in the same building.

    Despite their Anti-MBA approach, from what I hear they are not “soft on quant” if you go there with that in mind you’ll have another thing coming. My brother, who has a working professional background in finance and graduated with a 3.8x GPA undergrad in finance found out first hand. Even with his extremely rigorous study habits, he still couldn’t garner more than a B from one of his finance classes.

    The professors take their curriculum seriously, remember we are talking about Johns Hopkins here, they have money to pay the top professionals and last time I checked Johns Hopkins was still the 17th ranked university in the world.

    As far as discounting the perception, in the MBA sphere, everyone knows which schools rank where, and if you forget, someone surely will remind you. There’s no fooling anyone there, however, Johns Hopkins Business School is in a great place to position itself simply because it cannot go any lower than it is :). Being an upstart B-School from a university with a worldwide reputation that is fully vested in it’s success builds a strong foundation for Carey to stand on and that’s the point we ought to make here.

    I believe a fair evaluation (if you are looking at enrolling in Carey) would be to look at the school in it’s current state and not compare Johns Hopkins Carey School of Business with it’s peers in other disciplines. Don’t compare a Hopkins MBA to a Georgetown MBA or even a University of Maryland MBA for the time being. For now, it’s uncertain where JHU MBA program will land since it is not accredited yet, but I think the general consensus is that the program will eventually enter and move up the rankings.

    Also, I never assumed that recruiters would beat the door down to get to Hopkins graduates, at least not initially. As a matter of fact, my brother was lucky enough to get an internship considering he had to troll other schools recruiting events. I’m sure once the first full time class graduates they will up their career services efforts.

    Lastly you mentioned the DC region being over saturated, I can’t say whether I agree or disagree with you, because you are correct in there being alot of schools to choose from however, the more schools, the more competition, the better educated the society and those are all pluses.

    As a matter of fact, “IF” JHU gets it right, they may eventually position themselves to be the MBA of choice in the DC/Baltimore area (in a decade or so), which could be a huge payoff considering Georgetown has yet to solidify a position as a top program, and the University of Maryland is still somewhere in the middle.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    With Hopkins now, there are going to be 2,000 or more new MBAs a year in the DC market that originated in the market; not to mention the Harvards, the Michigans, the Whartons, and the Yalies who come down to DC to work for Treasury, the World Bank, Booz Allen, etc. Show me the jobs that are going to support all of those new MBAs each year, at the salary and level of responsibility that they might desire of expect. That is the very definition of an oversaturated market. Someone is going to get squeezed out, and that someone is probably going to be the new kid in town whose MBA doesn’t pack the same oompf in a given industry as the other top dogs who hunt in the market.

    (By the way, so long as there is a Harvard Business School, Hopkins will never be the “MBA of choice” in DC. Being the best business school physically located in the DC region is like being named “Miss Congeniality” at a beauty pageant.)

    So what happens to a Hopkins MBA if they’re passed over for work in DC? Legg Mason can’t hire every Hopkins MBA. Where do you go if you strike out in DC or Baltimore? As a longtime resident of the Western US, I can tell you that you’re not coming out here. I think you are greatly overestimating the prestige of Johns Hopkins outside of the medical community. Georgetown, for example, has much higher name ID and prestige out west. I could give you a list of the Hoyas I studied and networked with as a graduate student out here (went to one of the better-known “Public Ivies” out west), but I’ve met not a single Hopkins alum. Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, Austin, Houston … nothing’s impossible in life, but these are not realistic options for you as a Hopkins MBA. As for the Northeast, well …

    I’m not someone who needs to work for a major bank in New York to be happy, but what I do need and want is a nationally portable MBA that gives me a high amount of credibility when I submit my resume to a hiring manager. I hope that anyone who is considering Hopkins is being realistic about whether the yield there will be worth the career risk. DC’s just a brutal market, and a Hopkins MBA will probably not have much portability outside the region.

    (And I stand by my earlier stated question as to whether an MBA is the best, or even a necessary investment for someone who’s interested in NGO or nonprofit management. Some of the students in the piece said they want to launch social enterprises, and I find myself screaming, “Why do you need an MBA for this???? Do you realize how much money you could be wasting??)

  • MBA

    Mr. Red Poet,

    I respect your opinion, but I think you are missing the point. Johns Hopkins started a business school just like any other university can/will and regardless of the market they are in (it seems as if you have something against the DC market), JHU just like any other university out there is out to educate and get paid in the process.

    Just because Georgetown, etc.. is in the area, that shouldn’t curb JHU from being in the market. Also, Harvard, Wharton, and the Yalies are always going to get the first look off of name recognition alone. So that too is an invalid point.

    Also, I would say that an MBA from JHU may be even carry more value outside of it’s local area depending on the industry you’re in. Locally, the Hopkins MBA is still earning it’s name, however people outside of the area go of the Johns Hopkins name first. And if you’ve never met a Johns Hopkins MBA it’s because “THEY JUST STARTED THEIR FIRST FULL TIME CLASS.” Perhaps you missed that I mentioned that? All others have attended on a part-time, flex schedule basis.

    As for social enterprise, I side with you on that point. I’m quite sick of hearing that term being tossed around. Business if for profit, the best social benefit that can happen from building a business is employing people.

    I’m done responding, JHU is a great institution and they have every right to start a business school and I would prefer to have a JHU MBA over 50% of the ranked schools (my opinion). The program may be in it’s infancy, however the institutions reputation proceeds itself.

  • MBA

    *Pardon the typos.

  • MBA

    I don’t want to speak for or against JHU Carey School of Business anymore, if you want to learn more I would contact them or check out this video: http://video.forbes.com/fvn/education/hopkins-new-business-school .

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    I’m not missing the point at all. I’m raising legitimate concerns that make you uncomfortable. My comments have nothing to do with the quality of the DC market, or whether Hopkins has the right to start a business school. And when you say that I’m right that those top schools will always be preferred to a school like Hopkins, I’m not sure how you dismiss that information as “invalid.” If you plan on applying for a job in DC, it seems pretty valid. It directly contradicts your claim that Hopkins will be the “MBA of choice in DC.”

    As for the point that a Hopkins MBA will somehow have prestige among hiring managers outside of DC-Baltimore just because it’s affiliated with Johns Hopkins University, claims like this suggest that you haven’t spent much time in various parts of this country. Spend some time in Dallas or Los Angeles, and see if they’re all that impressed with Johns Hopkins.

    Also, I never said I hadn’t met a Hopkins *MBA. I said I hadn’t met a Hopkins *alum*. Read my comments more carefully. There is not a large alumni pool of Hopkins grads west of the Mississippi compared to other schools back East (Georgetown being one that I mentioned as standing out in this regard); therefore, your claim that a Hopkins MBA will somehow carry water outside of its region is suspect. Thanks for the video link, but unless it somehow addresses what I said beyond “just trust us” as an answer, it offers me little utility.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    Also: When you say that I have something against the DC market, I don’t know what you mean. I’m skeptical of the utility of a Hopkins MBA in that market, but I’m not sure how you’ve connected that opinion of mine with the conclusion you drew.

    Is the DC market oversaturated? Without question. Does that mean that it is a “poor” market. Not necessarily. There are some incredible job opportunities in DC to be had, if you have the right connections and/or credentials. A poor market, to be, is one in which those opportunities do not exist at all, or in very limited number; and is not to be confused with a “competitive” market.

    Hopkins will probably do decently for jobs in Baltimore, and probably send some grads to Delaware, and probably some high achievers to DC and Philly.

  • MBA

    Also Mr. Red Poet, some of the people who attend JHU Carey School of Business already have those jobs at the World Bank (traders) (risk managers), Booz Hamilton (financial analysts), as well as engineers for Northrop Grumman, Lockheed etc… etc.. Additionally, many already have advanced degrees.

    Feel free to check out this article from one of the JHU Carey Graduates in the Harvard Business Review :) http://hbr.org/2011/01/the-globe-investing-in-the-post-recession-world/ar/1

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    @MBA, please paste a link to the source you’re citing about the background of Hopkins MBA students. I’d like to read it. I’m interested because the article above states:

    “Few of the MBA candidates, for example, are from the major consulting firms or from Wall Street. In the charter class, finance is not even among the top eight professional backgrounds, which include health care, government, non-profits, education, manufacturing, and technology.”

    That doesn’t necessarily contradict what you are saying about these students backgrounds, but I’d like to know how you are defining “some” — as in, how many of these World Bankers and Booz Allens and Grummans are passing up Wharton and MIT-Sloan and Virginia for Hopkins. Specifically, I’m interested to see how many Hopkins students worked at these places you mentioned versus the total class size of the program. If you had a link for that information that you cited, that’d be great, and I look forward to reading it and learning more.

    As for the other link in the HBR, I’m not sure what that demonstrates about Hopkins and its MBA program. You don’t need an MBA to write that article.

    I’m also curious to know why a professor would say this about the students at his own school:

    ‘“I think there may be brighter students at other schools, but the attitude and motivations here are much better,” says assistant professor Chester Chambers, who has an MBA from the University of Virginia’s Darden School, a Ph.D. from Duke University and who had taught at Southern Methodist University.’

    If I were a Hopkins student and I read that, I would be irate. That’s a hell of a backhanded compliment. This doesn’t speak well of the faculty at Hopkins if this is representative of how they market their students.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    Also @MBA, are you the same poster as @CareyMBAClass2011?

  • MBA

    No Mr. Red Poet, I am not Carey MBA Class 2011 (nor am I a member of any Carey class). However, I have visited their business school. With that said, I would suggest that if you have that many questions about JHU Carey, just contact them directly, http://carey.jhu.edu/contact_us/index.html I’m sure someone would answer those questions.

    Thanks, and have a great day.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    Are you not going to post those links, @MBA? I want to know the source of your claims. Surely it cannot be that difficult.

    Both you and @CareyMBAClass2011 use the same kind of phrasing in your comments. That’s amazing.

  • Arthur Dullsworthy

    Red Poet, it doesn’t matter where the guy goes to school. Another way to look at the question is to realize is that the MBA curriculum is a commodity. It’s the same thing in all the b-schools but for some variations in pedagogy. And it’s not so hard to hire a bunch of reputable and well-credentialed business PhDs to serve as faculty. This is why people talk so much about brand and networking. Hopkins has the brand. It is, in fact, a better brand that Georgetown (whatever that means) and that will take a Hopkins MBA into all the places where Hopkins degrees are well-regarded.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    @Arthur: It’s not a better brand west of the Mississippi.

  • Arthur Dullsworthy

    @Red, if Hopkins is the better brand on the east coast what does it matter if it’s not the better brand on the west coast? Or why would it matter to some kid from the east coast who plans to seek employment either on the east coast? Georgetown is known for being a place for kids with more money than brains. Not a helpful rep.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    a) I won’t grant you that Hopkins is necessarily a better brand on the East. If you’re an aspiring doctor, it surely is. If you want to work in the federal government, it’s a push. And Georgetown has a top 14 law program, and Hopkins has none — places at all the top firms in DC. A Georgetown JD can get you into the top biglaw firms in DC. Not bad for stupid rich kids. You act as if Georgetown grads are potted plants.

    b) Portability matters. Should you go to either Hopkins or Georgetown for your MBA if portability is your top concern? Of course not. But in life, people tend to move around. People get married. People get tired of the same location, want different opportunities elsewhere, etc. Maybe some people don’t want to spend the rest of their lives on the East Coast, even if that’s where they want to be right now. Shouldn’t you be at least somewhat curious at to how your MBA is viewed outside of its region, even if its rep is largely regional?

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/redpoet/ Red Poet

    I’ve spoken my piece in this discussion. If you feel that Hopkins is right for you — if you feel it’s worth the price and total opportunity cost and career risk — you should go there.

    Personally, I don’t think it’s a good deal at all. I think that too many colleges and universities view graduate degree programs as profit centers and marketing tools for their schools, as opposed to offering a credential that actually brings students a significant career advantage as opposed to other alternatives.

    Adding another graduate school to an oversaturated job market like DC strikes me as being daft on top of crazy. You’re paying six figures (with nondischargeable student debt) to enter a wildly competitive job market with a major competitive disadvantage compared to lots of other MBAs from better-established schools in the market. I do not see the value in this — and no one has explained to my satisfaction why you need to pay six figures for an MBA if you want to work for an NGO or in social entrepreneurship, like the students suggested in the article. You could go to Hopkins SAIS instead — which really DOES have a well-established, sterling reputation — and get an MPP for $15,000 or so less, actually be LOCATED IN DC as opposed to Baltimore for networking, and end up with much better career prospects for NGO or social entrepreneurship type work. But if all you see and hear is, “I have to have an MBA for this” — if you’re a captive to that thinking — well, good luck.

  • Arthur Dullsworthy

    @Red. Agreed, an MBA from anywhere for employment at an NGO, BS social entrepreneurship, is just daft.

  • MBA

    Mr. Red Poet,

    As I said before, I am not the poster Carey MBA class xxxx nor do I want to continue commenting on this story. It would be nice to hear from some JHU Carey students regarding their experience.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/jackhirsch/ Jack Hirsch

    Wow, quite a spirited discussion we have here!

    I’ll try to address a lot of the questions posed here but first, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a Carey Global MBA ’12 student. Since there were so many questions, I’ll just bullet them out.

    @RedPoet – re: DC market saturation of MBAs
    DC has the lowest unemployment rate of any major metro area in the US. http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm

    re: Hopkins name outside the DC market (west of the Mississippi)
    I’ve worked for several years west of the Mississippi (as well as Europe, South Asia, Australia and Africa) and in my experience, JHU carries great brand recognition. Although the GMBA program has yet to prove itself, I have no doubt that we will exceed expectations.
    I also think that general rankings give an accurate representation of brand value: http://tinyurl.com/5wpvubz or http://tinyurl.com/67whehr or http://tinyurl.com/gbzop or http://tinyurl.com/6d4f3wf

    re: Academic rigor
    Carey is *NOT* a grade inflating school, period. Don’t come here if you want a 4.0. You won’t get it. Don’t come here if you want to coast through at a 3. You can’t. The school has too much riding on the first students’ success to allow free riders.

    re: Dr. Chambers’ comment about brighter students elsewhere
    Chester Chambers was misquoted and meant that there will always be brighter students at the theoretical “other” school.

    re: Faculty at Hopkins
    In our first semester, I was taught by professors from LBS, MIT, Chicago, Wharton, etc. I have no doubt in the caliber of the faculty here.

    re: Carey students’ backgrounds
    We have an incredibly diverse class with students who’ve worked in companies ranging from Morgan Stanley to Moody’s, Booz to CGI, ATi to AOL. We are 56% international from the Netherlands, Mexico, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Greece, France, and more. We also proudly have a 35% female class. As far as prior education goes, I personally live with two other GMBAs: one already has a MA from LSE and the other has a BS from Waterloo.

    My opinion in 30 seconds:
    At the end of the day, each person needs their own reasons to justify getting an MBA. If you need a ranking now, go elsewhere. If you want to work on Wall Street you *CAN* come here. If you want a school that has the potential to be very highly ranked, come to Carey. If you want a top-notch rigorous education, mandatory international experience, and the opportunity to bring one of JHU’s innovations to market, come to Carey. If you want access to the tech transfer office of the largest educational recipient of Federal research money, come to Carey. If you want to study in small classes alongside top faculty at the #1 research university in the world, come to Carey. If you have an entrepreneurial spirit and want to help shape a new breed of MBA program, come to Carey.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/jbyrne/ John A. Byrne

    Thanks Jack for weighing in. Really appreciate it and hope things are going well for you. Love your perspective on Carey.

  • Carey Class of 2008

    Just wanted to weigh in with my two cents. I am a Carey graduate from 2008 (take the bias as you will!) Most of the stuff in this article was unfamiliar to me. I enjoyed my education, but it wasn’t anything as far out as the article made it sound. It must have changed a lot over the past three years.

    All I can speak on is name recognition. I work in the D.C. area. Everyone is impressed by the JHU name. No one knows anything about the B-School itself. In my opinion, Wharton is the only B-School where the name matters. After that, it is strictly based on the reputation of the school. Harvard and Yale are way up there. UofMaryland has a great business school, but the only ones who really know that are those who go there or care about the rankings. For most people, JHU beats UofMaryland everytime.

    Of course, people here may disagree. Obviously, you care about B-School if you are reading this comment. No one else cares. There is a big difference between business and business school. All the real world cares about is how you perform and the name on the diploma.

  • MBA

    @Carey Class of 2008

    I think you summed it up with a great point: “There is a big difference between business and business school. All the real world cares about is how you perform and the name on the diploma.”

  • WOV

    The anti-MBA / public interest thing is cute marketing, but the pricing says otherwise.

    Various students’ description of the “diverse” classmates is hilarious. Look at all the different ethnicities! (Of employees at massive international corporations.)

    I think that the attempts to couple a business model that relies entirely on either Wall Street-level salaries upon graduation, or nearly-complete employer funding of the degree, with an ostensible focus on social mission displays rather clearly that MBA programs have a great deal further to go before they are meaningfully engaged with the real world.

  • John

    What are they talking about? Pure MBA does not teach you much and neither gives you a good boost in salaries these days. Please check the starting salaries of MIT MBA grads report on their website and take rosy glasses off. There were too many people who were thinking of an MBA like a fast forward to six figures salaries. They have over-saturated the market quickly because almost anyone (with 100k.) can get an MBA. This is no rocket science. It is sad they wanted so much that the Wall Street collapsed. Those days are not coming back.

    Now, MBA is not what it used to be 5 or 10 years ago. Please continue to listen to the deans about “great” opportunities ahead after spending 100 k. on an MBA. If you are rich and powerful already, MBA will help you, no doubt. If you are undergrad who doesn’t know what to do with your life (the majority of MBAs whom the deans target), you better specialize in a particular field because there are way too many young kids who want to manage others just because they are among fresh 100,000 MBAs who have recently graduated.

    MBA is a good way to make money FOR the business schools these days so we will hear a lot from news reports about how great it is to go into debt just to get an MBA and join the other millions worldwide with such a degree, debt, and much poorer job prospects than just 5-10 years ago.

    I think MBA like any soft skills degree has its value, but definitely not 100 k. I would say 10 k. given what kind of knowledge they teach there. Again, check MIT placements report :) and think twice about what any other lower ranked schools will give you.

  • Steve

    I appreciate the lively discussion, too. I have only recently thought about getting a Masters degree. I’d appreciate any input, because I am doing things off-timing. I’m a non-traditional student who graduated with a BS in Accounting from Towson University in 2006, got my CPA license in 2009. I’ll be 49 this year (time flies!). I work for Defense Contract Audit Agency which has paid or contributed a lot towards many of my coworkers’ Masters of Business programs. Frankly, it’s been hilarious and a headache to quickly discern that there can be little ROI in obtaining a Masters degree. I signed up for a GMAT prep course. My instructor is working on his 3rd Masters degree. His second was from Carey, an MS in Finance. He’s a pleasant instructor, bright – perhaps almost too smart for his own good. He totally discounts Masters programs as lacking value except for whom you might meet. He speaks well of Carey Business school. I was intrigued that he chose to go there given that he scored in the 99th percentile on his GMAT. In a nutshell, I’m considering an MS in Information Systems at Carey, a MS in Business at University of Maryland College Park, or I’d just get a Masters in Accounting paid for in full at Towson. I doubt I’d want to do an MBA program. It’s hard to see the advantage considering I’d be 52 or 53 by the time I complete the degree and I’d have to stay at DCAA a year or pay them back. Thanks in advance if anyone has any thoughts.

  • Rtan

    I have an MBA from Hopkins and let me tell you, it was not easy by any means. This is coming from someone that already had a graduate degree in engineering. After my MBA, I landed an engineering position which pays in mid 100s. Currently, the JHU MBA is not considered to be at the same “level” as the Harvard and Whartons. However, that will change overtime (how long that will take is another question). Given their brand recognition, endowments, and dean, they certainly have the potential. With respect to the job market, based on my personal experience talking with corporate recruiters, JHU has a reputation which is on par, or exceeds that of the Yale’s, Stanfords, Duke, etc.. But, at the end of the day, it’s the person, not the degree.

  • A. Nonymous

    I posted earlier in this thread and someone redirected me back to it in the wake of Dean Gupta’s departure. I’m a 2010 Finance MBA. Here’s my impressions of the program and its reputations. Of course, all opinions are typos are my own and not gospel.

    Curriculum: It’s generally pretty good. Of course, I won’t have any comment on the Global MBA, but the executive MBA program is generally strong. It’s your standard MBA curriculum, although it’s been tweaked to allow more opportunity for individual exploration. One area that I hope they are addressing is large-scale data analysis. My econometrics class focused on it, and I hope other classes do the same.

    Faculty: Good and getting better. I spent 4 years getting my MBA at night. By the end, all of my professors had strong publication records and great academic credentials, with the exception of one, but he had 40 years of practical business experience.

    Reputation: Mixed. Generally, hiring managers are impressed that I have a Hopkins MBA and like the mix of classes. I secured interviews with all of the local DC heavyweight consulting firms (Booz, Accenture, IBM, Cap, etc.) I only did interviews with Booz, IBM and Cap because I decided to take a federal job that would keep me close to home. I turned down one offer and knew another one was coming. I ran my resume by some friends on the Street and they told me it would get laughed out of the room. Oh well. Corporate HR is generally favorable to Hopkins around here.

    One area where Carey can get better is marketing to Hopkins alumni. To no one’s surprise, Hopkins has a strong local alumni presence. Carey needs to reach out to them more, which will burnish the B-schools’ reputation.

    Career Services: Good and getting better. They have what I consider to be a good service model where you get points for achieving different milestones such as a resume review, attending workshops, etc. Basically, the more you do with them, the more they do for you. I was at the highest level, but since dropped off as I’m not really involved too much. I still get at least 1 email a day with an interview or resume collection opportunity. I looked back on them recently, and the number of “recruitment events” is up dramatically. There’s still a long way to go, but Carey is making progress.

    Alumni network: Middling. My wife and I are both lifetime members of the JHU alumni association. The Bloomberg School, where she went, is a lot more active. I’m hoping for a local Carey chapter or event sometime soon. They’ve recently started networking events and affinity groups, so I’m hopeful that this will get better.

    On the whole, Carey is where you would expect it to be. It’s getting the basics in place with faculty, facilities and curriculum. The career services and alumni networks will take longer.

    Hope this helps.

  • Jerry

    I am admitted to 2011 FT MBA but need to pay full tuition. Is it risky to invest so much on a very new program? My background is bio-science, and my target is health care industry. JHU is a big school in this area, but i am not sure how Carey will benefit from this. Any comment will be appreciated.

  • http://poetsandquants.com/members/jbyrne/ John A. Byrne

    Jerry,

    Because you’re targeting the health care industry, I think Johns Hopkins is a good bet for you. But do make sure you tailor the MBA program to your specific needs (ie., take electives in health care, sign up for projects/clubs that bring the med school and the B-school together, do an independent seminar or study with the med school. Good luck.

  • admit

    Hello, Just want to thank you for all your advise and suggestions.

    I’m also admitted to Carey, but also to U Missouri.
    It’s a hard choice but I do want to work in Marketing and branding/tech sector. The same question like Jerry… “is it worth the investment into such a new program?”

    Kinda risky but i suppose every business has risk and i might as well just get used to it.. but this is like playing Russian roulette.. (funny cause I’m actually writing this from SPB, Russia) Would really love some advise!! thankkks!!!!

  • Jerry

    John, thank you very much for your suggestion.

  • Sajal

    Does the business school have any relation with SAIS? Does anyone know if its possible to take the 6 electives through SAIS? Thank you!

  • Balthazar

    Interesting comments. I have a question. I am preparing to apply to JHU-Carey for a MS-Finance degree (after 10 years of being a systems engineer in DoD environment, I found that I still needed a certificate to become a quant). Any ideas on going to this program and graduating as a certified quant??

  • JAC

    I am in my 2nd as at MBA candidate at Carey. So far, I have the same concerns as the naysayers.
    Pros:
    – Well managed school – Hopkins has been educating for years – so to be expected
    – Good Professors – Some excellent with real experience (high level execs) and ability to teach
    – Solid Core Curriculum – Very well thought out and core subjects and materials are the same as Wharton and Tuck (I have friends there and we compare)
    – Awesome resources – including the latest technologies are available in and outside the classroom. Good library, writing resources, tutoring resources
    – Great environment – Nice classrooms, good facilities
    – Diversity – This is a very diverse group of students – many professionals from all over the globe and offer many different experience backgrounds
    – Good career assistance – I am already discussing jobs with Booze, Legg, General Dynamics, SAIC, and I did not even try, as I have a 6 figure salary for a DC nonprofit
    Very Convenient – They really thought this through as there are many options for working professionals with hectic schedules. I have a full-time job and 3 kids. It is not easy, but doable for sure. GW and Georgetown were not.
    Overall, they are in it to win it, but there are some defficiencies worth noting.
    Cons:
    – 2 credit system – allows flexibility, but a lot material in 8 weeks, and comparing the same courses at Wharton, they get 18 weeks to cover the same material covered in 8 weeks. I find I have to do more than expected to get the full value.
    – Some green professors – I have had a couple professors that were terrible because they had no real world experience or they just had no idea how to teach. With the 8 week course, teachers could rely on just tacking on workload and offer little guidance.
    – turnover at the administrative level. The advisers have been good, but I have had 3 so far. Maybe that is a genera hazard in this industry?
    – No Dean – Currently we are Deanless – That could create problems as I know what temporary leader can and cannot do in similar situations.

    I think it is totally worth the money as they provide the opportunity to learn, so like anything else, it is what you make of it.

  • Pablo

     Hello Steve,

    I’m planning on doing the MS in Information Systems (my current background), and I wonder if you did go for that one. My other option is MPS in Technology Management at Georgetown SCS

    Thank you,

    Pablo

  • Henry

    Can anyone tell me about the dual degree program??(MPH/MBA)…Hopkins is best for MPH no doubt…but what about MBA??….Can anyone tell me ranking of universities for dual degree program? and would like to know what everyone thinks about the dual degree program?

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