Boardrooms & Bedtime Stories: Meet Kellogg’s Power Moms

Sarah Horwath is raising three children while attending Northwestern Kellogg’s Evening & Weekend MBA program: “I once heard someone say, ‘The glory of a family, is a mother fully alive.’ When you have children and are making the decision to put time and energy into a program like Kellogg, you know there will inevitably be trade-offs, but there will also be pay-offs.” Courtesy photos

Sarah Horwath starts her day negotiating outfits with her 6-year-old, squeezes in a Zoom call with stakeholders in South Africa, volunteers in her daughter’s classroom, and wraps the evening pitching ideas in a Kellogg MBA course downtown. In between, she’s a nurse, a mom of three, a student — and a force of nature.

Currently enrolled in Northwestern Kellogg School of Management’s Evening & Weekend Program, Sarah balances long hospital shifts with a rotating class schedule, parenting Teddy, 10, Madeleine, 8, and Peter, 6, and finding joy in the chaos. Her vision for the future? A role that connects cutting-edge health technologies to the systems that need them most — and continuing to model curiosity and courage for her kids.

“The glory of a family is a mother fully alive,” Horwath says. That means saying yes to the hard stuff — the readings in waiting rooms, the help from caregivers, the travel for global health projects — and letting her children see what it means to pursue purpose with heart.

MEET THE MOMS

Mothers pursuing MBAs balance demanding coursework, parenting responsibilities, and professional goals — and they do it all with strength and clarity of purpose. 

It’s not for the faint of heart. 

This Mother’s Day, we spotlight the stories of four Kellogg students who are raising families while redefining what it means to lead. From an executive MBA juggling global coursework with toddler bedtime routines to full-time students racing between campus and daycare, each has carved her own path through Kellogg — with support from classmates, professors, and partners — and emerged with lessons on balance, ambition, and the legacy they hope to leave.

Whether managing pregnancy alongside case competitions or squeezing in readings during pediatrician visits, these moms show that business school and parenthood aren’t at odds — they’re often part of the same ambitious path.

Alex Muir and her partner Tyler are expecting their first child in September. Courtesy photo

Q&A: ALEX MUIR, KELLOGG TWO-YEAR FULL-TIME MBA 

Alex and her partner Tyler, a first-year student in Kellogg’s two-year MBA program, are expecting their first child, a baby boy, in September. Prior to joining Kellogg, she worked at a healthcare technology company, focused on data interoperability. She had a variety of roles from Chief of Staff to Head of Product Success to Business Operations & Strategy. Post-graduation she hopes to pivot into early-stage healthcare investing. 

What is your daily routine? What does a typical week look like — or is there such a thing?

Since getting pregnant, I have had to adjust my schedule to accommodate my pregnancy. The great thing about business school is you get to build your own routine each quarter, so I have appreciated the flexibility that Kellogg has given me to push my classes into the afternoon since mornings became really tough for me. On a typical day, I start with taking our black labrador Enzo out to play, then I get ready, and sit down to do homework. A couple times a week, I try to make it to campus early for a lunch-and-learn event before my classes start in the afternoon.  

Finally, if I am feeling up to it, I try to do something social in the evening. A typical week is very busy but very fulfilling as there are many friends and learning experiences along the way.

What challenges did you anticipate before applying and has your experience matched your expectations? In what ways has it been more challenging than you expected, and are there ways you have received unexpected support? Is there anything you would do differently in your application/preparation for the program, knowing then what you know now?

I can answer this question from the perspective of an expecting mom. While applying to business school, I thought that we should wait until after I graduated to have our first child, assuming that having a child during school was not possible. I knew that I wanted to start our family soon and I became nervous about the effect of taking a maternity leave shortly after starting a new job post-grad. 

However, when I came to Kellogg, I started to look around and realized how supportive the community is of all types of students: expecting students, student parents, single students, and everyone in between. As I learned about the mechanics of taking classes (such as the possibility of taking 5-week courses instead of 10-weeks) and what business school was like, I started to realize that although busy, you are given the ultimate flexibility to curate your school experience. I realized that having a baby during the program was possible.

How does Kellogg support you as an expectant mom?

As an expecting mom, I have been met with the utmost support and kindness from professors, staff, and my fellow colleagues. As I navigated my first trimester, my professors were incredibly invested in and understanding about my health. The academic advising office has been an incredible resource in giving me options around classes for the fall semester when the baby arrives, such as taking 5-week courses or remote courses. Lastly, my Kellogg classmates have been my biggest cheerleaders – offering to bring me food when I was not feeling well, offering to help me navigate childcare when the baby comes, and even surprising me with a Northwestern newborn beanie! 

The scariest part about having a child in my opinion, whether or not you are in school, is just the unknown. For me, the logistics of making sure I am a good mom and an ambitious student are what worry me — how are we going to manage classes and the baby? How are we going to ensure we have reliable childcare? The support I have felt from the Kellogg community as a whole has made me confident that although these questions still need to be answered, there are going to be solutions that will make it possible for us to start our family and complete the program.

What is one piece of advice you would give mothers, expectant mothers, or women in general about doing a program like yours as a mother? Please share your wisdom!

My piece of advice for mothers, expectant mothers, or women looking to do an MBA program is do not count yourself out. It can be very easy to look at the logistical complexities and say, “it’s not possible.” I unfortunately cannot promise it will be easy, but it is definitely doable! If you are thinking about applying but may be wondering if you can do it — you can!

What kind of legacy do you want to leave for your children? 

I hope that when my children think of me and my legacy, they see an example of someone who was not afraid of complexity when it came to achieving their goals. I know I will never be able to hide from my children some of the sacrifices we may make as a family to make all the things work, but I hope that they can look back at my life and understand that achieving your goals is worth it, even if it is complex. 

Anything else you’d like to share, please do! 

Two side anecdotes: 

One of the biggest reasons I felt comfortable having a baby school was because I was connected with a prior Kellogg student who had her second baby during school. She was an incredible resource to understand how it could be possible. I will forever be grateful for her example (and the example of the many other phenomenal women in my life) in showing me it could be done. 

When my grandpa heard that I was pregnant, his first question was, “But what about her education?” In other circumstances or in the past, it may have been an either-or question between having a baby and finishing one’s education. I was so proud to say that for me at Kellogg, it is not an either-or question, but rather an “and”.


Parnian Rao with her partner and son, Isa. Courtesy photos

Q&A: PARNIAN RAO, KELLOGG ONE-YEAR FULL-TIME MBA

Parnian’s son Isa is 5 years old. Her husband works full-time. “Both have been a huge support system throughout my MBA journey,” she says.

Prior to joining Kellogg, Parnian was a data science consultant at ZS Associates in Chicago. Post-grad, she will join Amazon as a senior program manager.

What is your daily routine? What does a typical week look like — or is there such a thing?

The day starts early. I live in Chicago downtown and almost all of my classes are at the Global Hub in Evanston. I wake up around 5:30 am, prepare breakfast and lunch for my son, get him ready for school, and I try to leave by 7:15 am so that I can get to my 8:30 am class after dropping Isa at his school. 

He gets free at 3:30 pm and there is no after-school program at his school, so I mostly take classes ending by 3 pm so that I can pick him up by 3:30. There are some evenings where I have class 6-9 pm as well.

My day is full and busy most days of the week, but I’m grateful for the chance to grow personally, academically and professionally while still being present for my son.

As a parent before starting the program, what challenges did you anticipate before applying and has your experience matched your expectations? In what ways has it been more challenging than you expected, and are there ways you have received unexpected support? Is there anything you would do differently in your application/preparation for the program, knowing then what you know now?

One of the biggest challenges I anticipated before starting the program was managing my schedule — specifically, whether I’d be able to take the courses I wanted while balancing my responsibilities as a parent. Financially, I was also a little apprehensive about whether the commitment would be too much for my family.

The reality has been intense. For example, in one quarter, I was interning at a startup, working on a client project for a course, and contributing to an AI lab project — all while keeping up with my classes and parenting. It was exhausting at times. What helped was sticking to a disciplined routine and reminding myself that I couldn’t do everything. For instance, I knew I’d have to skip some social events or networking parties, and that was a tradeoff I made to protect my time and energy.

Looking back, one thing I wish I had done differently is secure reliable childcare before the program began. I didn’t pursue childcare at the start because Isa was already in preschool, and I knew I could count on my husband. He’s been incredibly supportive and encouraging throughout the MBA journey — always stepping in when I needed him. However, there were still a few days when we both had important commitments and no coverage. Thankfully, my sister moved to Chicago and was able to help out on short notice, but having a nanny or someone on-call from the start would have made things much smoother. I also would have chosen to live closer to Evanston. Since I was already based in downtown Chicago, I thought the commute would be manageable — but something nearer to campus would have made a big difference in terms of time and flexibility. 

How does Kellogg support you as a mom, and support your child(ren) as you go through the program? 

One of the reasons I chose the One-Year MBA (1Y) program at Kellogg was because of the time commitment. I wanted to pursue a top-tier education, but I also knew I needed to be mindful of the impact on my family. The 1Y program offered the intensity and quality I was looking for, without stretching things out longer than necessary.

I’ve felt truly supported by the Kellogg community every step of the way during my MBA journey. For example, late afternoon and evening classes were hard for me to attend because I needed to be available to pick up my son. I really appreciated the flexibility Kellogg offered of taking courses at the downtown campus, which allowed me to drop Isa off at home with his dad, and still attend class with the same professors. That flexibility made a huge difference in making the program work for me.

Everyone I interacted with at Kellogg — academic advisors, career coaches, professors, and classmates — are incredibly supportive. Professors are understanding when I have to miss class because Isa wasn’t feeling well, and often allow me to attend a different section. Group members were flexible about meeting times, and I really appreciated that.

I also used Kellogg’s babysitting resources a couple of times when I was really in a pinch.

Overall, I’ve felt deeply supported by the Kellogg community — not just as a student, but as a parent. That empathy and flexibility has made all the difference in making this experience not only manageable, but truly meaningful.

What is one piece of advice you would give mothers, expectant mothers, or women in general about doing a program like yours as a mother? Please share your wisdom! 

Go for it! Just be intentional about how you manage your time, energy, and expectations.

There will be tradeoffs. You might have to skip a few events, say no to some opportunities, and yes, there will be days when you’re exhausted. But it will also be one of the most rewarding experiences you’ll ever have.

Build a support system early and don’t hesitate to ask for help — it makes all the difference. And most importantly, try not to carry guilt if you can’t give your kids 100% every single day. You’ll make up for it on other days, and they’ll see your dedication and growth along the way. It’s hard, but it’s worth it!

What kind of legacy do you want to leave for your children? 

I hope my kids are kind, ambitious, resilient and adaptable. I want my children to grow up knowing that everyone’s journey is unique — and that success isn’t about comparing yourself to others, but about staying true to what you want to do.


Sarah Horwath and her children: Madeleine, Peter & Teddy. Courtesy photo

Q&A: SARAH HORWATH, KELLOGG EVENING & WEEKEND MBA 

Sarah is a mother of three: Teddy, 10, Madeleine, 8, and Peter, 6. Her husband, John, works full-time. She currently works as a Critical Care Outreach Nurse at Loyola University Medical Center, after having worked in intensive care, emergency response, and as a clinical nurse mentor throughout the U.S. as well as in Rwanda. Post-MBA, she says, “I would love to transition to a role that allows me to use my clinical expertise to serve as a trusted resource and link between rapidly evolving healthcare technologies and healthcare systems — either in a health tech startup, VC, or consulting firm.”

What is your daily routine? What does a typical week look like – or is there such a thing? 

Every day/week looks a little different and I love that! My days at the hospital are long shifts on a rotating schedule so each quarter at Kellogg I choose my classes and then schedule my workdays around those classes. On the days I have evening classes, I am able to fit in some homework and fill my role as “Mom” before I head off to class. Here’s an example of one those days from this past week: 

  • 7:00a – 8:30a: Morning prep and school drop off for kids; convince Peter (6) that he can’t wear Teddy’s shirt (10) today!
  • 9:00a – 10:00a: Zoom call/informational interview with stakeholders in South Africa, for a project in my Medical Technologies in Global Public Health Course 
  • 10:30a – 12:00p: Volunteer in my daughter, Madeleine’s, 2nd grade classroom 
  • 1:00p – 3:00p: Homework/prep for class 
  • 3:15p – 4:00p: Pick-up kids from school, catch-up on their day, give them snacks, prep for and take them to their activities 
  • 4:15p – 5:30p: Drive from the suburbs to the city to make it for dinner at Kellogg Table, a pre-class meal held at Wieboldt Hall on the downtown Chicago campus.
  • 6:00p – 9:00p: Selling Yourself & Your Ideas Course 

As someone who was a parent before starting the program, what challenges did you anticipate before applying, and has your experience matched your expectations? In what ways has it been more challenging than you expected, and are there ways you have received unexpected support? 

I wrote down a list of fears I had about going back to school before I applied to Kellogg. My top fears, were naturally, related to the care and well-being of our children. Giving up control and accepting others’ help was one of the most difficult but humbling things I’ve experienced. The caregivers who have come into our lives, have brought diversity and creativity into our home – this unexpected benefit enriches our kids’ lives! 

Recently, I traveled to South Africa for the Medical Technologies in Global Public Health course. This class and this trip in particular were something I had been looking forward to since learning about Kellogg- and it was only possible because my parents flew in from Florida and took over daily operations at home while I was gone! 

There are times I struggle to keep up with the workload, especially if a class has a ton of readings. One day a few months ago I was with my son, Teddy (10), at the allergist, and I had a case study with me on drug pricing for healthcare strategy. We had quite a long wait in between tests so I had him read a few pages of the article aloud to me and then we discussed it. It was a fun way to connect school to family and it made the burden of the homework completely vanish.   

How does Kellogg support you as a mom, and support your children as you go through the program?

The Evening & Weekend Program is incredibly flexible and allows me to move through the coursework at a pace that is perfect for me and my family. Although I am slated as a weekend student, I take many evening classes, some virtual classes, and classes in Evanston as well. In the fall of 2023, my family attended the Kellogg vs Booth Annual Field Day at Lake Shore Park in Chicago and our kids loved racing around the track in the city next to Wieboldt Hall. (see pic#3) 

I am grateful for classmates who genuinely respect and support me as a mother in business school. I have made some wonderful connections and friends. I am thankful for professors who have encouraged me to use my experiences as a mother in class discussions! 

What is one piece of advice you would give mothers, expectant mothers, or women in general about doing a program like yours as a mother? Please share your wisdom! 

I once heard someone say, “The glory of a family, is a mother fully alive.” When you have children and are making the decision to put time and energy into a program like Kellogg, you know there will inevitably be trade-offs, but there will also be pay-offs. When you pursue goals you are passionate about, when you step into an environment like Kellogg surrounded by brilliant and compassionate individuals, it lifts you up, it gives you experiences and stories to share with your kids, and this enriched version of yourself enhances the love and energy you will bring home to your family!

What kind of legacy do you want to leave for your children? 

Here’s a poetic version of the legacy I want to leave for Teddy, Madeleine, & Peter. 

May they walk through life with wonder in their eyes,
a hunger for knowledge that ever thrives;
may they seek the truths in every view,
and learn from voices old and new.

Let them labor with purpose, not just for gain,
find joy in effort, wisdom in strain;
with hearts wide open, gentle and wise,
let compassion be where their greatness lies.

And when the winds of change arise,
may they face the storm, not compromise—
for in each challenge, bold and strange,
lives the power to grow, to dream, to change.

Anything else you’d like to share, please do! 

My daughter, Madeleine, likes to leave me notes of encouragement. One day I got in my car to drive to class at Kellogg and this picture of us from her Taylor Swift themed birthday party was on the center console — I flipped it over and saw her sweet message (above). 


Anisa Chowdhury, an executive MBA student on Kellogg’s Miami campus, with her daughter Ayaana, son Ayden and partner Tasveer. Courtesy photo

Q&A: ANISA CHOWDHURY, KELLOGG EXECUTIVE MBA 

Anisa is a mother of two: Ayden, 8, and Ayaana, 2. Her partner is Tasveer. She is currently Vice President of Corporate Sustainability and Assurance at KERAMIDA; before starting the Kellogg Executive MBA program, she was Audit Manager for S&P Global.

What is your daily routine? What does a typical week look like — or is there such a thing?

The first couple of months were genuinely tough. I was juggling a demanding job, adjusting to the rigor of the Kellogg EMBA program, and managing the daily needs of my two young children. It felt like everything was happening all at once, and I was constantly playing catch-up. Balance felt impossible. 

But Kellogg doesn’t just equip you with academic knowledge, it gives you the tools to lead your life better. Early in the program, we were given a copy of Professor Harry Kraemer’s book 168 Hours, a practical guide on how to manage your time intentionally across a full week. That was a game changer. Later, Habits at Work by Professor Andrew Sykes reshaped my mindset around health, focus, and personal productivity. Slowly, I stopped surviving the program and started living it, with clarity and purpose. 

Kellogg helped me build habits that turned my chaotic days into a more grounded and fulfilling rhythm. Here’s what that looks like now:

  • Mornings start early, before the rest of the house wakes up. I carve out time for reflection, a quick workout, and my morning coffee, small rituals that center me. Then, I shift into mom mode, getting the kids ready for their day.
  • Before logging into work, I review a checklist of priorities across work, school, and home. My husband and I sync our schedules through a shared calendar and take a “divide and conquer” approach to parenting and daily responsibilities.
  • We became more strategic at home, outsourcing what we could, like grocery delivery, meal planning, and house cleaning, so we could reclaim that time for what matters: “family”.
  • After work, we trade off responsibilities. While the kids are at extracurriculars, I fit in study time or prep for class.
  • Evenings are sacred. We gather for dinner, unplug, share laughs, and end the day with stories or rocking out to Linkin Park songs (big fans). I want my children to grow up knowing that ambition and presence aren’t mutually exclusive, they can and should co-exist.
  • Once the house winds down, I shift into Kellogg mode, reading, collaborating, reflecting. It’s not easy, but it’s deeply fulfilling.
  • At night, I close the day with a quiet moment of reflection. I ask myself: What did I do well today? What can wait until tomorrow? I’ve learned it’s not about perfect balance, it’s about alignment with what matters most.

Kellogg hasn’t just made me a better leader, it’s made me a more thoughtful mother, still learning to be a present partner, and a more grounded version of myself. I’ve learned that the key to thriving isn’t doing more, it’s doing what matters, with energy and intention. That’s what I want to model for my kids that purpose and presence can live side by side, and that real leadership begins with how you lead yourself.

As a mother before starting the program, what challenges did you anticipate before applying and has your experience matched your expectations? 

Before starting Kellogg, I was already living a full life as a mother, wife, daughter, sister, friend, and employee. Adding “student” to that list wasn’t a decision I made lightly. It took deep reflection, hard conversations, and a great deal of courage. My brother was my greatest inspiration and with his encouragement, I ultimately realized that it was now or never, so I took the leap. I anticipated the long nights, the mental fatigue, and the constant shifting between roles. I knew that, at times, one of those roles would have to take a back seat. That was one of the hardest parts, knowing I couldn’t give 100% to everything, all at once. 

But what carried me through was the quiet fire inside me, and the belief that this journey would be worth it, not just for me, but for everyone I love. What’s matched my expectations is the intensity of the experience. 

What exceeded them is the extraordinary support I’ve received, not just from Kellogg, but from my village. My husband has been my steady anchor, stepping in without hesitation to keep our home filled with love, laughter, and stability. My mother has been the quiet strength behind the scenes, showing up with her gentle presence and wisdom, making sure my children always feel seen, safe, and nurtured. 

At Kellogg, I found more than a program; I found a community that truly embraces working parents. My classmates have become an extension of that village- sharing notes, offering encouragement, and lifting each other through the hardest weeks. Faculty have extended grace and humanity when life inevitably got messy. I expected to be tested, but I didn’t expect to be so held by my family, my classmates, and by this incredible network of support. 

Most of all, I’m proud that my children are watching this chapter unfold. They’re seeing their mom chase growth with relentless purpose, lead with heart, and trust in the power of community. That, to me, is the most valuable lesson of all. 

Is there anything you would do differently in your application/preparation for the program, knowing then what you know now?

If I could do one thing differently, it would be to start building my support network sooner, whether that’s more help at home, conversations with my partner about shared responsibilities, or simply giving myself more grace upfront. You don’t have to do this alone, and you shouldn’t. 

How does Kellogg support you as a mom, and support your children as you go through the program? 

Kellogg doesn’t just talk about inclusivity, it lives and breathes it. The program is intentionally designed for working parents, with a culture rooted in empathy, flexibility, and a deep understanding of the real-life complexities we carry with us. When I began the program, my youngest was just a year old. Attending classes in Miami once a month meant being away from home, and I anticipated the emotional weight of that distance, especially for her. So, I brought her with me. While I was in class, she stayed at the hotel with grandma, close enough that I could still be there for bedtime. That proximity made all the difference, easing her separation anxiety and giving me the peace of mind to be fully present in class. 

Over time, something beautiful happened — the anxiety faded, and I was able to travel to classes without her. The rhythm of our new routine brought her comfort, and I could see her growing more confident and secure with each trip. That growth mirrored my own, and it reminded me that even in the hardest moments, consistency, love, and support create resilience. 

What moved me most was how welcomed she was, not as a disruption, but as part of my story. That kind of acceptance matters. My kids are growing up watching their mother chase dreams with boldness and love and learning that motherhood and ambition are not at odds. We don’t disappear when we pursue big goals. We evolve, and we bring our families along for the journey. 

Kellogg helped me show them that learning is lifelong, leadership is rooted in love, and courage sometimes looks like pushing through exhaustion with a heart full of purpose. That’s the legacy I hope they carry forward.

What is one piece of advice you would give mothers, expectant mothers or women in general about doing a program like yours as a mother? Please share your wisdom! 

You don’t have to wait for the “perfect time,” because it rarely comes. Do it because you are a mother, not in spite of it. Your children don’t need perfection, they need your example. You are showing them that ambition and motherhood are not mutually exclusive. My advice? Build your village. Communicate openly with your family. Create sacred time, some for school, some for snuggles, some just for you. 

And most importantly, let go of the guilt. You are not taking time away from them, you are investing in the female leader they look up to.

What kind of legacy do you want to leave for your children? 

I want my children to grow up with the confidence that they belong in any room, and the courage to speak up for those who aren’t yet heard. I hope they see through my actions that leadership is not just about personal achievement, but about creating opportunities for others, especially for women and communities who’ve been overlooked for far too long. I want my kids to know that their voices matter, their perspectives are powerful, and their dreams are valid. That they don’t need to fit into a mold to lead, they can lead authentically, boldly, and with empathy. 

I hope they remember that their mom worked hard to open doors and keep them open, especially for other women trying to rise. The legacy I strive to leave is one rooted in purpose- a life that champions diversity, empowers women, embraces equity, and shows that meaningful change begins with everyday choices. I want them to know that progress isn’t always being loud, it’s often in how we show up, support others, and stay true to what we believe in, even when it’s hard. 

That’s the kind of leader I hope to be, and the kind of example I hope to leave behind.

Anything else you’d like to share, please do! 

To every woman who feels uncertain or afraid to pursue her dream of higher education, don’t let fear hold you back. You can do this. The key is to start with structure. Being organized is not just about managing time, it’s about creating the space to thrive. When you build a system that works for you, the chaos quiets, and you begin to find your rhythm. 

One of the most important things I’ve learned is that this journey isn’t meant to be walked alone. Be intentional about communicating with your support system, whether it’s your spouse, partner, parent, sibling, or friend. Kellogg offers a beautiful opportunity to include them through “Supporters Weekend,” where loved ones are invited to see firsthand what the journey entails. It’s more than an event, it’s a bridge that helps them understand your commitment, and makes the transition smoother for everyone involved. 

Don’t be afraid to outsource what you can, whether it’s meal prep, cleaning, or childcare. It’s not a sign of weakness, it’s a strategic move to preserve your time and energy for what truly matters. You deserve to spend quality time with your family and chase your ambitions wholeheartedly. 

Most importantly, be intentional with your Kellogg experience. Yes, the academics are rigorous and rewarding, but the relationships are just as transformative. Invest in your network and lean into the conversations. Show up not just as a student, but as a leader in the making. Reach out early to career coaches, mentors, and faculty, don’t wait until the end to start thinking about next steps. The earlier you engage, the more clarity you’ll have on where you’re headed and how to get there. 

Leadership is not a title; it’s a journey of becoming. You will grow in ways you never imagined. You’ll stretch, evolve, and come out stronger, wiser, and more grounded in your purpose. So, take the leap and say yes to yourself. The version of you waiting on the other side is worth it!

DON’T MISS THE MOTHERHOOD PENALTY STARTS IN BUSINESS SCHOOL and INTERNATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY: SHE DIDN’T WANT TO CHOOSE BETWEEN MOTHERHOOD AND A STANFORD MBA — SO SHE DID BOTH