Why Business Schools Want More H-1B Visas

Indian students

Part of a series on the U.S. job market for international MBAs

Part of a series on the U.S. job market for international MBAs

America’s H-1B visa system for degree-holding foreign citizens is “broken,” the country is losing top MBA talent to other nations, and the cap on visas needs to be eliminated or jacked way up. But politicians have hijacked the H-1B, corporations have abused it, and reform is unlikely anytime soon.

So say officials at America’s top business schools.

“We have all this talent. We have hundreds of thousands of international students in the United States who are tremendous assets in our economy. They’re helping our economy grow. And Congress has not increased the H-1B cap,” says Harvard Business School career and immigration advisor Kurt Piemonte. “The real issue is our Congress and our system that is broken. It’s inexcusable. I don’t see anything positive happening. We’re so far behind in competing with the rest of the world.”

The H-1B visa has become a political flashpoint, drawn into the chaotic debate over immigration, and demonized by recent reports that major U.S. firms have used it to replace American workers with cheaper foreign hires. But while business school administrators typically shy away from publicly staking out strong positions on politically charged issues, nearly every school official interviewed by Poets&Quants had no qualms about calling for reform of the lottery-based H-1B system, in which MBAs face steadily worsening odds of getting one of the 85,000 visas.

Kurt Piemonte, Harvard Business School

Kurt Piemonte, Harvard Business School

“This is just not a reasonable number,” Piemonte says. “A lot of international students just go home because there are more opportunities in emerging markets. We do not have enough talent in this country to keep our economy going. The only way to do it is to increase the number of foreign workers. They are a huge asset.”

APPLICATIONS SURGE FOR MBAS’ VISA OF CHOICE

In the latest round of H-1B visas, awarded by lottery, U.S. immigration services received 233,000 applications from companies for the Congressionally mandated 85,000 work permits. Last year, 172,500 applications were submitted, up significantly from 124,000 a year earlier.

Meantime, U.S. schools have significantly expanded the percentage of international students in their classrooms so the need for more work visas is greater than ever. At the University of Virginia’s Darden School of Business, some 36% of the latest entering class were born outside the U.S., triple the 12% representation of 20 years ago. At Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business, MBA students with non-U.S. passports now account for 38% of the class, up from only 19% two decades ago. And at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management, some 36% of the latest class is composed of international, compared to only 24% 20 years earlier.

Of course, immigration issues in the U.S. generate highly polarizing debate, and recent allegations that Disney and utility Southern California Edison used outsourcing companies to replace American workers with foreign H-1B employees have complicated the politics even more. Democrats join Republicans in unholy legislative alliances, none of which have so far found success. Major U.S. corporations have also banded together in pressure groups – one boasts Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Microsoft founder Bill Gates among its leaders, and wants immigration policy changes that will give companies more access to educated, skilled foreign workers; another group, pushing for similar changes, is led by titans including former Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer and News Corp. chairman Rupert Murdoch – but also by Bob Iger, CEO of Disney, a firm now mired in allegations that it forced American workers to train foreign, H-1B-carrying replacements before being laid off.

“I’m sure there are violators out there,” Piemonte says. “But they’re not the companies that are hiring our graduate students from the United States.”

BobBruner‘OUR COUNTRY IS FORGOING EXCELLENT TALENT FROM OUTSIDE’

Bob Bruner, outgoing dean at the University of Virginia Darden School of Business, wants to see the H-1B limit expanded, and visas tied to level of education. “Graduates of doctoral programs and master’s programs, i.e. advanced degrees, have substantially more human capital that could be of value to the United States,” Bruner says. “The H-1B visa does not recognize the distinction among applicants for the visa, either in terms of educational attainment or in terms of career potential.

“From a national policy standpoint in the United States, our country is forgoing excellent talent from outside that could make a substantial contribution to our economic performance.”

MBAs don’t belong in the same basket as the workers at the center of controversy over the H-1B, Bruner believes. “The jobs for which MBA students are being hired typically require sophisticated levels of preparation, high career potential, strong mastery of tools and skills – and the volume of American new graduates arguably is insufficient to fill the demand,” Bruner says.

  • Your Father…

    If you are an American, then someone in your family tree at some point was a foreign-born, who took an American’s job and used the income to nurture someone in your lineage down to your father.

    I’m pretty sure that ancestor of yours will agree with the point you are trying to make.

  • R

    Nope. Just an overwhelming sense of sadness and pity.

  • FastForwardAfter

    I sense a lot of anger. I know it is because you know I am right and you are wrong.

  • R

    Yes, as an anonymous internet commentator with poor reasoning skills, sub par IQ, little exposure to credible information sources, and an acute awareness of your inferiority in the global market, I am sure you are the best person to evaluate IBMs business plan.

  • bwanamia

    All I needed to know.

  • R

    Economics.

  • bwanamia

    Indicates that the people who wrote the law are as economically illiterate as you are. Amuse me, what is your area of excellence?

  • R

    The very fact that I am here on an H1b indicates that there weren’t enough functionally literate people who could sufficiently perform my job duties.
    It is all the more reason that people like me need to come to this country.

  • R

    Your logic and reasoning skills are non-existent, you don’t know what a ‘fact’ is, you evidently can’t google simple facts.
    I refuse to argue with a halfwit. You are exactly the kind of person that needs to be replaced with an H1b.

  • FastForwardAfter

    U.S. colleges graduate more qualified native STEM students than the job market can absorb. This has been proven time and time again. The Government Accountability Office, an independent source investigated this.

    This is nonsense:
    You wrote: “There aren’t enough functionally literate qualified people in the US, hence the need for an H1b”

    You must believe that “proof” consists of merely stating something.

    You are the one who has no knowledge of H-1B law. I can tell you are aware that you have lost this debate because even the ‘evidence’ you have cut and pasted, actually proves you wrong.

    1. H-1B law does NOT require a company to seek a U.S. worker.

    2. Companies are within their rights to replace more qualified U.S. workers with less qualified H-1B works who require training from the U.S. workers.

    3. There are thousands of companies that are engaging in this practice. It is only a few companies that have made the headlines.

  • bwanamia

    There are no shortages except as an hypothesis meant to explain undesirably high prices. Your claim and that of various experts and billionaires is economically illiterate. There is no reason why trained Americans can’t command higher salaries in their professions and why they can’t train for those professions in the expectation of receiving higher salaries.

    You need to learn some humility. If you truly believe that “There aren’t enough functionally literate qualified people in the US, hence the need for an H1b,” then you just shouldn’t come here.

  • FastForwardAfter

    You are wrong on all counts.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Until they have no more code monkeys to peddle. A short term business plan for sure.

  • R

    And yet, they survived the recession and their stock price is going up.

  • R

    I doubt it. An employed person typically doesn’t create two different accounts to argue about an issue that he knows nothing about.
    Also, an employer person will not be so bitter and petty about people smarter than him getting jobs that he can’t hope to qualify for.

  • R

    The sheer idiocy of your replies boggles my mind.

    You can’t just choose a job, you have to be qualified for that. There aren’t enough functionally literate qualified people in the US, hence the need for an H1b. You can’t just get up one day and choose to be a doctor. I can’t understand how this isn’t getting in your head.

    All policy experts, economists, data scientists agree that skilled immigration is a good thing.
    One article about how the H1b was misused 3 times in its history is piss poor evidence to refute all economic research that has gone into this.

    There have been no companies founded by H1bs because the law prohibits H1bs from starting companies. You have seem to have zero knowledge of the law that you so vehemently seem to be against. It is futile to even attempt a meaningful conversation with a person who does not understand the distinction between outsourcing and skilled immigration. You have been clearly proved wrong at least 5 times in this conversation and your understanding of the word ‘fact’ is dubious. Your arguments are so poorly reasoned that I have to question what you are even doing on a site meant for MBA candidates and grads.

    Honestly, if you are so insecure about global competition, try a different profession. H1bs won’t compete with you for unskilled jobs. You and your uneducated unskilled illiterate paranoid brethren can have those jobs for yourself.

    The fact that you are an imbecile is only compounded by your ignorance and closed mindedness.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Many of them are. For instance, IBM was a powerhouse of software and hardware, It is now just an outsourcing company peddling cheap coders on H-1B.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Companies are not breaking the law. It is allowed in the law.

    The article is demonstrating that the INTENT of the law has been ignored. As written, the law allows replacement of the U.S. workforce, so the INTENT does not matter.

    The fact that there has been no notable innovations of people on the H-1B visa, shows that it can be scrapped with no ill effects. There will be positive effects in that the U.S. middle class will have more jobs to choose from. This would be good.

  • R

    How did you come to this grand conclusion?
    Are these the same corporations that hire H1Bs and lose market share (according to you)? Don’t you think these corporations would have been bankrupt by now if your assumptions had an iota of truth to them?

  • FastForwardAfter

    A majority of Americans are against H-1B. Any citizen who reads about it is against it.

    It only exists because of corporations paying off politicians.

  • R

    From the same article:
    H-1B visas are temporary work permits issued by the U.S. government that are good for up to six years. The intent is for these visas to be used only when an American worker cannot be found. In fact, the U.S. Department of Labor states, “The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) requires that the hiring of a foreign worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers comparably employed.”

    If companies are breaking the law, it means that the offending companies need to be penalized- it doesn’t mean that the H1b program needs to be scrapped. Your argument is intellectually equivalent to saying that because some male adults commit murder, all male adults should be pre-preemptively imprisoned.

  • R

    Who is we? Do you speak for the collective populace of the US?
    I genuinely want to know if you were dropped on your head as a child. Honestly, I would never make fun of you- even the worse insult that I can think of would be uncomfortably close to the truth.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Are you assuming I am not employed? You would be wrong.

  • bwanamia

    That was an argument? We don’t need name-callers in this country. Stay in the UK.

  • FastForwardAfter

    thehill dot com/blogs/congress-blog/labor/235706-outsourcing-in-america

    “The practice of replacing American workers with cheaper H-1B guest workers is widespread. It is so endemic in the H-1B program that last year the majority of the visas went to outsourcing companies. Indian Government officials have dubbed the H-1B as the “Outsourcing Visa.”

  • R

    You are surprised that I did not know something that you just made up?
    Also, none of these companies have died. How long has it been since you stepped outside your house?

  • FastForwardAfter

    Learn this:

    H-1B is called the ‘outsourcing visa’. To outsource an IT department, the first step is to send in H-1B workers to learn the process before the entire department is outsourced and shipped overseas. At which time the company often dies.

    I am surprised that you did not know this.

  • R

    Almost all of these are cases of outsourcing. You do realize that H1b is not the same as outsourcing, right?

    I hope you do, or else this might be the most futile conversation I have had in my life.

  • FastForwardAfter

    This was easy:
    (You did say you were an H-1B and that you are going to LBS, right? Add the company you were pimped to this list.)

    Adaptec – Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
    AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
    AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
    Apple – R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
    Australia’s National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
    Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
    Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
    Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
    Caymas – Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
    Caterpillar misses earnings a mere 4 months after outsourcing to India, Inc.
    Circuit City – Outsourced all IT to Indian-run IBM and went bankrupt shortly thereafter.
    ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
    Computer Associates – Former CEO Sanjay Kumar, an Indian national, sentenced to 12 years in federal prison for accounting fraud.
    Deloitte – 2010 – this Indian-packed consulting company is being sued under RICO fraud charges by Marin Country, California for a failed solution.
    Dell – call center (closed in India)
    Delta call centers (closed in India)
    Fannie Mae – Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty and sent to prison.
    GM – Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
    HP – Got out of the PC hardware business in 2011 and can’t compete with Apple’s tablets. HP was taken over by Indians and Chinese in 2001. So much for ‘Asian’ talent!
    HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
    Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
    JetStar Airways computer failure brings down Christchurch airport on 9/17/11. JetStar is owned by Quantas – which is know to have outsourced to India, Inc.
    Lehman (Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
    Medicare – Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
    Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
    MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
    MyNines – A startup founded and run by Indian national Apar Kothari went belly up after throwing millions of America’s VC $ down the drain.
    PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
    PepsiCo – Slides from #1 to #3 during Indian CEO Indra Nooyi’ watch.
    Polycom – Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
    Qantas – See AirBus above
    Quark (Alukah Kamar CEO, fired, lost 60% of its customers to Adobe because Indian-written QuarkExpress 6 was a failure)
    Rolls Royce (Sent aircraft engine work to India in 2006, engines delayed for Boeing 787, and failed on at least 2 Quantas planes in 2010, cost Rolls $500m).
    SAP – Same as Deloitte above in 2010.
    Singapore airlines (IT functions taken over in 2009 by TCS, website trashed in August, 2011)
    Skype (Madhu Yarlagadda fired)
    State of Indiana $867 million FAILED IBM project, IBM being sued
    State of Texas failed IBM project.
    Sun Micro (Taken over by Indian and Chinese workers in 2001, collapsed, had to be sold off to Oracle).
    UK’s NHS outsourced numerous jobs including health records to India in mid-2000 resulting in $26 billion over budget.
    Union Bank of California – Cancelled Finacle project run by India’s InfoSys in 2011.
    United – call center (closed in India)
    Victorian Order of Nurses, Canada (Payroll system screwed up by SAP/IBM in mid-2011)
    Virgin Atlantic (software written in India caused cloud IT failure)
    World Bank (Indian fraudsters BANNED for 3 years because they stole data).

  • R

    ????? Were you dropped on your head as a child?

  • bwanamia

    Of course you’ll take London, it’s not England anymore.

  • R

    You do understand that ‘hard-working’ and ‘qualified’ are not synonymous with ‘innovation’, right? Your statement is barely coherent.

    I know you haven’t provided any evidence of any of your blanket statements in the past, and it’s probably futile to ask, but can you provide an example of a company losing market share after hiring H1bs. I hope you can distinguish between the real world and your overworked imagination,

    Which H1bs have ruined a company and then gone to LBS? Are you on meth?

  • FastForwardAfter

    You think those words are synonymous with H-1B. I challenge you to post a link to one useful innovation made by an H-1B. They are just billing units put in a company for short term profits via salary and benefits reductions, after which the company loses market share and dies.

    Then the H-1Bs that ruined the company talk about leaving to LBS. Sounds familiar?

  • R

    Yes, you got me. I got into LBS but was not able to go to a US M7 university. Your understanding of the world is beyond laughable.

    I will take London any day over the US- less narrow minded ignorant hicks out there. I am willing to bet that even if all foreigners leave, you still won’t be able to stay gainfully employed, let alone do an MBA.

    You know I am telling the truth when I tell you that not a single one of your problems is going to go away if H1bs are discontinued. You will just find a different excuse for your ineptitude.

  • bwanamia

    Couldn’t get into HSW or those other “M7” schools? You might be happier in the Londonistan.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Couldn’t get into a U.S. university, could you. I can see why.
    and you would rather go to England than go back to the dump that produced you, I see. Couldn’t measure up to the U.S. worker you replaced, I bet. What corporation is now going defunct because of hiring a swarm of H-1Bs, including you. You know I am telling the truth.

    Yes, you are here arguing with a six year old at the same level as yourself.

  • R

    I am sure your understanding of the words ‘hard working’ and ‘qualified’ is just as comprehensive as your understanding of the word ‘fact’.

  • R

    You smell my fear? What are you, 6 years old?

    Fortunately for me, I was accepted to LBS.

  • FastForwardAfter

    The U.S. graduates more hard working, qualified citizens than the job market can absorb. No need for any H-1B program.

  • FastForwardAfter

    I smell your fear. If the H-1B program is scrapped, you would have to leave because you cannot compete for an O-1 visa. Good riddance.

  • R

    FYI, I am on an H1b in the US right now.

  • R

    In addition to extraordinary individuals, the US is in dire need of hard working, functionally literate and trained employees with at least a modicum of intelligence. Your school system clearly cannot match the quality or quantity of demand.

  • FastForwardAfter

    If point 4 is not enforceable, the H-1b program should be scrapped. We have an O-1 visa for extraordinary individuals. The H-1B visa is for ordinary workers doing ordinary work.

  • FastForwardAfter

    You are the one with poor reasoning skills. I bet you are afraid to take the GMAT because you know you will not get above 600.

    You said you could prove that a firm must seek U.S. candidates, to prove this you cut and paste prevailing wage requirement. One does not prove the other. You lack deductive reasoning ability.

    You will never get accepted into a U.S. university.

  • R

    Let me copy something from my own comment above that I posted since you seem to have willfully ignored it.

    “There are multiple facets to each job, having a more experienced employee train a newer employee in a few facets is the norm- I don’t see how that is a relevant point. There are multiple skills that are evaluated when reviewing employees, being able to train people in performing the very basic duties is maybe 20% of any skilled job. The fact that the Disney employees trained new H1bs does not indicate anything. I don’t expect you to understand this either.”

    I am not just declaring it to be so- I proved using links from DOL and USCIS that H1b candidates need to be paid at the market wage at a minimum. The article we are commenting on clearly explains the lottery system and the element of luck involved in hiring an H1b. Given these constraints, why would an employer still prefer to hire an H1b? Your statements lack any semblance of logic.

    Side note: From your statements, it is evident that you have extremely poor reasoning skills. I doubt if you will be able to score 600+ in the GMAT- banning foreign students will still not get you anywhere in even the top 50 b schools. The time you spent ineptly arguing on this thread can be much better utilized if you enroll in vocational school or learn a useful trade.

  • FastForwardAfter

    The Disney, Harley Davidson, Southern California Edison, Fossil employees were required to train the H-1B workers. This indicates they knew how to do the job. THey were qualified enough to train their replacement. They stated they were not allowed to compete for the jobs. What part of that do you not understand.

    Therefore this statement is false:

    “All jobs prefer US citizens- only when the entire US talent pool has been examined and found to be utterly lacking in any required skill does an H1b come into play.”

    You cannot erase actual facts by just declaring it not to be so.

  • R

    This is so much fun.

    You do realize that hiring managers make the final decision, right? Multiple recruiters work on multiple jobs – each may interpret the demands of a position in a different way, and may post a job description for candidates that matches their understanding of a position. To fill a position that has not received qualified american resumes, recruiters often need to look in different markets- the only way to reach Indian candidates is to post on Indian job sites- nowhere does it say that US candidates will not be considered.

    Do you think you are in a better position to make Disney’s hiring decisions than their hiring managers? Do you have job evaluations of those Americans that were laid off? Do you have any facts to back up your assertion that they were more qualified? Note- I refer to the dictionary definition of ‘Fact’.

    All jobs prefer US citizens- only when the entire US talent pool has been examined and found to be utterly lacking in any required skill does an H1b come into play.

    Also, it is very interesting that you consider economic research and the consensus opinion of tech leaders as gibberish. You are no different than a global warming denier. Given your stupidity, entitlement, immaturity and habit of whining, would you honestly be surprised if an H1b was hired over you?

  • R

    Maybe if you were a little more informed on this issue, you would know that skilled labor immigration is one of the few issues that the republicans and the democrats agree upon. Much needed reforms haven’t been carried out only because of the general apathy that we have seen from the govt. The last few reforms, although insufficient, leaned towards expanding immigration rather than limiting it.

    It is amusing that you have to learn this from a foreigner.

    Also, more than 95% of the voting population (including you) won’t even be aware of a single candidate’s stand on skilled immigration.

  • FastForwardAfter

    It is YOUR understanding that is deeply flawed. Outsourcers post job ads exclusively in India for jobs in Boise. Look at site brightfuturejobs dot com/ibm .

    Other outsourcers post jobs that advertise for “any skill” in India, but give a long list of mandatory skills in the corresponding ad in the U.S.

    Any ad that specifies “OPT/CPT only” discriminates against citizens because there are no citizens on OPT/CPT.

    For example, HCL hired people for the Disney jobs. Not one of those people were American. There were qualified Americans doing those jobs. Wouldn’t those be the best qualified for those jobs? Not one American was even allowed to compete for their own jobs.

    It would be normal for jobs to specify citizens and permanent residents only. Most jobs SHOULD specify this.

    The rest of your post is gibberish, I will not address.

  • bwanmia

    I confess that I’m not a billionaire entrepreneur or a renowned economist. Doesn’t matter. Millions like me who don’t like you telling us that you foreigners are so much smarter and more deserving will have our say in the 2016 election.

  • R

    Very articulate. I am convinced. You make an excellent point there.
    With geniuses like you, who needs scientists, lawyers, programmers, mathematicians etc.

  • bwanamia

    We don’t believe you and we’re going to kill H1B. No later than 2017. Mark my words.

    Let the deportations begin!!!

  • R

    Your understanding of the current process is badly flawed. Everything you mentioned in points 1-3 is happening right now- companies do interview all qualified candidates- preference is given to US candidates- there are thousands of job positions on job websites which clearly state that only US citizens can apply.

    Given that H1bs need to be paid by law at market rate or above, and considering that the H1B process is insanely cumbersome and subject to chance, why would any company prefer to hire an H1b over a citizen?

    You will not be able to show me a single job post that requires an H1b over a US citizen.

    It seems from your comments that you have made up your mind that H1bs are stealing your jobs, and you refuse to consider all evidence that points to the contrary. When renowned economists. billionaire entrepreneurs, and most intellectuals agree that the work visa program needs to be expanded, your anecdotal evidence and facile ‘facts’ seem woefully inadequate.

    Point 4 is not enforceable. Subjective factors come into play when hiring a candidate. Revealing rationales for hiring decisions exposes employers to legal liabilities. There is not a single profession where you can evaluate a candidate 100% objectively. If this were the case, interviews would be redundant, and everyone would be hired via job specific tests. This is just not the way the world works.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Yes, Since you asked:

    1. Companies should interview all qualified candidates for all positions in the U.S.

    2. Companies should not exclusively hire in a foreign company for a position locatd in the U.S.

    3. The same criteria should be used to measure U.S. candidates as foreign workers. Currently, U.S. workers are held to a higher standard than foreign workers.

    4. If a foreign temp worker is chosen over similarly qualified U.S. workers, all those U.S. workers should be notified what measurement was used to disqualify them and they should be notified that a foreign worker was selected.

    I am sure you would agree that this would be fair.

  • R

    So the government should now start considering your half baked and possibly biased observations as empirical support to make large scale economic decisions? Excellent.

  • R

    So what is a good alternative in your opinion? Govt. should force the employers to hire only citizens, even if they evaluate them and find them to be incompetent?

    Do you think employers should not have the autonomy to make a decision? We have established using the LCA that an immigrant is not hired over a citizen due to lower salaries. In addition to that, what do you want the US govt to do?

    Have you thought any of this through?

  • FastForwardAfter

    Where did I say I pay less taxes?

  • avivalasvegas

    You say that you want what is best for the US and yet you pay less taxes. Why the hypocrisy? I think the real solution is to ban immigration that is not linked to earnings or intellectual capability and prevent illegal immigration. Time for you to leave.

  • bwanamia

    Scrap visas. Deport on 90 days notice without exception. Allow local law enforcement to participate in enforcement of immigration law.

  • bwanamia

    Not my religion, but there’s empirical support for the view.

  • FastForwardAfter

    No, the best solution is to scrap all work visas. Immigration should be an arrangement between the family and the U.S. government on behalf of the citizens. Corporations and universities should have no part in the discussion.

  • avivalasvegas

    This government is making all the right kinds of decisions. We are in agreement – the benefit of its citizens should be the governments top priority. Since these folks pay more taxes to the government than you do, the better solution is for you to leave and give your place to someone who can pay more taxes to this economy. Please let us know when you have given up your citizenship and returned to your home country.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Please go and google the term “Notice”.

    They are only required to give public notice that they intend to bypass the U.S. workforce including every resume of citizens.

    Corporations proudly give such notice.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Notice is just that. NOTICE. Nowhere does it say if U.S. citizens apply do they have to even consider them.

  • R

    “Notice must be given to U.S. workers on or within 30 days before the date the employer files the Labor Condition Application (LCA) (Form ETA 9035 and/or ETA 9035E) with the Department of Labor. ”

    The above is a notice that must publicly display at your workplace if you are planning to hire an H1b employee. US workers have one month to apply for the job if they qualify.

    You keep using the word ‘fact’, but I think you have no idea what it means.
    Everything in my post is factual, right from the definition of market wages to excerpts from USCIS and DOL websites.

    This has been fun for me. At first I thought you were a troll, then I realized you are just a paranoid, incompetent and misinformed little cretin.

  • FastForwardAfter

    You have failed the challenge! Your paste actually proves that there is no requirement that you certify that you have looked for a single U.S. worker. NONE!

    Did you even read before pasting?

    I reiterate this FACT:

    There is absolutely no requirement that you have looked for a single U.S. worker before hiring an H-1B!

    The rest of your post is equally baseless nonsense. I will not address.

  • R

    Yes, please send me the links on the USCIS website that prove your point. Each new poorly reasoned comment from you makes me cringe.

    Market wages != Disney wages. The fact that you don’t know this does not surprise me in the least. There are companies that pay above market wage, and companies that pay below market wage. The average of all such companies in the market is the market wage.

    There are multiple facets to each job, having a more experienced employee train a newer employee in a few facets is the norm- I don’t see how that is a relevant point. There are multiple skills that are evaluated when reviewing employees, being able to train people in performing the very basic duties is maybe 20% of any skilled job. The fact that the Disney employees trained new H1bs does not indicate anything. I don’t expect you to understand this either.

    Challenge accepted:
    Here’s a direct quote from the USCIS website (Link:http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupation/understanding-h-1b-requirements)

    “Requirement 4 – You must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher.

    The prevailing wage is determined based on the position in which you will be employed and the geographic location where you will be working (among other factors). The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) maintains a database with applicable current prevailing wage levels based on occupation and work location. To view the wage database and estimate the prevailing wage that may be required for your position, click here.”

    Here is the LCA law from the dept of labor website (http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62m.htm)

    “Notice must be given to U.S. workers on or within 30 days before the date the employer files the Labor Condition Application (LCA) (Form ETA 9035 and/or ETA 9035E) with the Department of Labor. This notice must include:

    The number of H-1B nonimmigrants the employer is seeking to employ;

    The occupational classifications in which the H-1B nonimmigrants will be employed;

    The wages offered;

    The period of employment;

    The locations at which the H-1B nonimmigrants will be employed; and

    The following statement: “Complaints alleging misrepresentation of material facts in the labor condition application and/or failure to comply with the terms of the labor condition application may be filed with any office of the Wage and Hour Division of the United States Department of Labor.”

  • FastForwardAfter

    It is YOU who has no idea. I can give YOU the same USCIS links that prove that it is not a requirement at all.

    The fired Disney workers did not get a chance to compete for those jobs. They have publicly stated this! In fact they were required to train the untrained H-1B workers. By definition, the trainer is the one more qualified than the untrained replacement. That is what the entire controversy is about. Pay attention!

    Your statement here makes no sense: “…If Disney complied with the law that H1bs should be paid according to the market wages, then that means the fired employees were overpaid…”

    By definition, the market wages for the job would be the wages the original Disney workers were being paid!

    It is your argument that is illogical! It is also YOU who does not know or understand the laws relating to the H-1B visa.

    I challenge you to put an actual quote from the H-1B or LCA form or a quote from any law that says a person seeking an H-1B worker must first look for a U.S. worker! There is no such requirement in the law! NONE!

  • R

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I can provide links to the USCIS website to prove my statements, but I feel that is a futile effort. You are a simple google search away from finding out the truth from yourself.

    If Disney complied with the law that H1bs should be paid according to the market wages, then that means the fired employees were overpaid- and they did get a chance to compete for the job; in fact, they were working on the job for years before they were fired. None of your arguments make any sense, and your understanding of the law is so pedestrian that it does not make any sense to argue with you further. From your other comments on this post, I can unequivocally conclude that you are an idiot.

    Keep up your paranoia and make excuses for your failures if that makes you sleep better at night. The truth is if corporations prefer H1Bs to citizens over Americans despite the numerous hurdles they need to go through to hire H1Bs, that just means that the immigrants are that much better than you. Your being bitter over it on a forum is not going to change anything.

  • FastForwardAfter

    No. YOU are factually incorrect. The LCA form has absolutely no requirement that you certify that you have looked for a single U.S. worker. NONE!

    You need to read up on H-1B and LCA.

    What Disney did was completely legal and in full compliance with H-1B law. The law needs to be changed to allow U.S. citizens to be able to compete for those jobs. The Disney employees were not even given the option to compete for their own jobs. The law needs to be changed to disallow this.

    U.S. citizens should not be excluded from competing in any profession. That is just wrong!

  • R

    You are factually incorrect. There absolutely is such a requirement- it is clear to me that you know nothing about the H1b process. Read up on the LCA (it is a document that needs to be filled before applying for an H1b), and then maybe look deeper into reasons for your own failures than blaming immigrants. Maybe look into other areas of work – I have heard plumbers make a lot of money.

    As for former Disney employees, I don’t blame them for feeling bitter and lashing about about people who took over their jobs- I don’t expect them to be unbiased in their opinion, though. In any case, what Disney did was against the H1b rules, and I am sure

    Obama recently made made a statement urging the USCIS to make the process marginally easier for spouses of H1b immigrants. In addition, he has proposed giving all immigrant STEM grads a 6 year OPT, which is a drastic improvement over the current situation for immigrants. Both of these events contradict what you predict about politicians who support H1b going out of favor. Obviously, there are going to be populist morons without any understanding of economics who try to pander to the masses- and considering how misinformed the majority of the US populace is, I wouldn’t be too surprised if opinion shifts one way or the other. For a country where almost half the population denies global warming, I am not surprised that existing economic research is completely disregarded by politicians.

    However, at some point people should stop deluding themselves about their potential to be programmers, scientists, doctors, engineers, lawyers etc. H1bs aren’t taking your jobs- you just are not good enough to compete with smarter people from other countries who value education and work harder than you.

    The only tipping point I foresee in the near future is the top 5% of skilled immigrants will start to realize that they deserve better, and will start looking for greener pastures – immigrant friendly countries such as Canada, Singapore, Australia and even the middle east.

  • avivalasvegas

    Go back? You think I’m from there? Silly rabbit

  • FastForwardAfter

    Read the title of this article.

  • FastForwardAfter

    A better solution will be when citizens, who can vote, elect representatives who put the welfare of citizens over the desires of foreign students who cannot vote.

  • FastForwardAfter

    WRONG. There is absolutely NO requirement to seek a U.S. candidate before hiring an H-1B.

    No employee is indispensible, including the H-1B replacements. The Disney employees were interviewed and explained how unknowledgeable and incompetent the H-1B workers were. That’s how we know.

    There will be a tipping point where citizens will say enough and throw out any politician who advocates for the H-1B.

    David Brat unseated the great Eric Cantor with one platform issue: “Too much immigration hurts citizens in the job market”.

  • R

    So you find the one common thread between successful immigrant entrepreneurs to be their religion?

    I don’t find the suggestion offensive, I find it ridiculously stupid.

  • bwanamia

    No, I was asking avivaslasvegas if he’d like us to prioritize immigration of people who based on track record are most likely to succeed. You’re the one who finds the suggestion offensive.

  • bwanamia

    Remember, privilege is relative. How many Dalits at the IITs?

    The Dalits weren’t created by the Brits or other pilfering nations over the centuries. If you’re so damned pleased with India, you should go back.

  • avivalasvegas

    How can you even begin know what an IIT guy would prefer?

  • avivalasvegas

    I don’t need to lecture you and there’s nothing alleged about it. It’s historical fact. You don’t have to go too far back the average corn fed family tree to find a direct connection to some atrocity. Of course, India has its own problems. But the IIT grad isn’t some privileged individual. (Incidentally, the non IIT students had more family wealth backing).

    Nobody cares about your suggestions. India is 60 years old and has been pilfered by multiple nations for centuries. Give her a couple decades more – I’m sure that by the time you learn some humility ( and how I hope it is taught to you by an immigrant), there won’t be the demand for US immigration that exists today.

  • bwanamia

    Very strange. On the one hand, if you think that’s the history, then you just don’t belong here. On the other hand, you’re arguing that IIT grads have a moral right to come here based on alleged events that no living American took part in.

    Here’s something of interest: those IIT grads aren’t Dalits. I suggest that we only approve visa apps of Dalits. Rather than come to the US, those IIT guys should stay home and assist the Dalits to achieve social and economic parity.

    Don’t lecture me about the US. India is a sewer of inequality. You are defending the interests of a privileged class, not the interests of merit, hard work and competition.

  • bwanamia

    Even the IIT guys would prefer to avoid Microsoft. Microsoft is what we Americans call a TTT* in decline.

    *third tier toilet

  • R

    US citizens are allowed to compete for any job on US soil right now. What are you talking about? Before hiring an H1b employee, the petitioning company has to certify that they couldn’t find a suitable US candidate for the position. Have you ever heard of a citizen being denied a job because a company strictly hires only H1Bs?

    The H1b allows no such thing- there is an upper limit on the percentage of jobs within a company that can go to H1b employees.

    Disney did what they did because the fired employees were not indispensable. The alternative would have been to outsource. If the fired employees were a team of veritable Einsteins and Newtons, Disney wouldn’t have found suitable H1b candidates to replace them.

    How do you know the IQ of former and current Disney employees?

    The honest truth is that if the H1b program were expanded, imbeciles like you would be out of jobs, and deservedly so. This would happen not due to H1bs being paid lower wages, but due to your incompetence.

  • avivalasvegas

    They’re smart, well paid fools then. No education is complete without practical, real world training and development. Your new government gets it and is bolstering Practical Training as well. If you don’t like it, why not give up your newfound citizenship and return to your original country?

  • avivalasvegas

    No, they are not. Their job demand, pay, career path and progression all measurably show that they are quite valuable. They even pay higher tax contributions as a result of their higher income. You are likely just an ordinary stamp on a passport replaced by a new navy blue passport like mine. I applaud them for not taking no as an answer. They’re fighters who have spirit and won’t give up till they have no choice left. I’d want folks like them in my country.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Because H-1B MBA applicants are demanding the quota be raised. They are not taking NO for an answer. They are as ordinary as I am.

  • FastForwardAfter

    The tuition was for the education. If the MBA education is not enough, they should not have enrolled.

    Foolish to pay a university for a government benefit the university has no authority to distribute.

  • avivalasvegas

    The article is about H1B Visas, not the OPT “program”. No one cares about OPT because it is one year and has no real impact to anything. Its too marginal for anyone to give a damn because its a 12 month training period..and is often used far less. I think any student deserves real world training..more if they’ve paid several years worth of tuition for it.

  • avivalasvegas

    So if you aren’t claiming special value, why are you asking that H1B applicants also demonstrate exceptional value? If you came in just via a plane jane application, you are less exceptional than an H1B applicant. By your logic, its time to give back your US citizenship and let a more valuable H1B applicant take your spot. Let me know when you’ve done so and I’ll wave you farewell.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Relevance?

  • FastForwardAfter

    I was specifically referring to the OPT program. The OPT program discriminatory to citizens.

  • FastForwardAfter

    I am not claiming any special value. I asked permission and they said yes. If they said NO and turned me away, I would not have demanded to be allowed to come.

  • avivalasvegas

    Did you migrate on an O1? What makes you valuable to this country? Why not put your money where your mouth is and renounce your citizenship?

  • avivalasvegas

    Where were you in 2008-2011?

  • avivalasvegas

    Not sure about kohn’s exposure but I do know about mine. I don’t need any visas and I can tell you that America’s history lies in the killing of its true native people, raping their women, stealing their land and calling it their own. I don’t see IIT’ians doing any of those things.

  • avivalasvegas

    Doesn’t an Indian dude head up Microsoft? And didn’t he do his undergrad in India and his MBA at Booth?

    You’ll forgive me for not treating your ” are declining rapidly” as an accurate prediction of the tech sector, won’t you?

  • avivalasvegas

    Please don’t say we like other citizens agree with you when clearly that is not the case here.

  • avivalasvegas

    You conveniently using the 12 month OPT in an attempt to validate your argument. You are failing at this because the OPT (and CPT) are limited training periods, where recent grads of US Universities are allowed to work for upto 1 year in a corporate or academic setting. Not even MBAs can extend this further without an H1B sponsorship from an entity that proves it cannot source a US worker for the same job.

    Once on H1B, all employees pay Income and State tax, social, medicare along with routine employer payouts. I maintain that your claims are baseless

  • FastForwardAfter

    BASELESS????

    So the fact that the same salary offered to an American as an OPT student will cost the company less to hire the OPT because of not having to pay SS and Unemployment insurance, is baseless.

    Are you unable to see why the OPT student is cheaper than the American student at the same salary?

    I cannot help you at math at this point.

  • FastForwardAfter

    There is no limit to the O-1 visa. If they don’t qualify for that, they are not as valuable as they think they are.

  • FastForwardAfter

    They alreadey are run by such poeple. Spellling is a lost art.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Exactly, and if my family did not get selected, we would accept that.

  • FastForwardAfter

    I do not feel entitled to jobs. I believe US citizens should be allowed to compete for any job on U.S. soil. The H-1B allows corporations to reserve jobs for foreign temp workers exclusively. Read about Disney.

    By the way, the H-1B workers at Disney were of lower IQ than the workers they replaced.

  • R

    Sympathize*.
    Can you imagine what would happen if business stopped hiring H1bs?
    People who lack basic grammar and spelling skills would run US corporations.

  • R

    So essentially, the US govt granted your parents a huge favor. Your talent and skills (or your family’s talent and skills) had nothing to do with the fact that you were granted citizenship to this country.

    Yet somehow, you still feel entitled to jobs over people who have IQ scores 40+ points above you. If your attitude doesn’t perfectly betray the state of the average uneducated hick decrying immigration while being secretly terrified that qualified immigrants may be able to run circles around them, I don’t know what does.

  • R

    You have to be a troll. Otherwise, you might be the stupidest person that ever lived.

  • avivalasvegas

    I’m sure your family would have. And I’m sure the folks being denied their H1B’s will today.

    The difference is that, unless your family also got highly sought after and competitive degrees in the US, the H1B cap is turning away people who are sought after in the job market. It’s not just MBAs.

  • FastForwardAfter

    This is a work visa article, not a tax article. Try to keep up.

  • FastForwardAfter

    But my family won in the visa jackpot due to the fact that less people applied than the quota during that time because the U.S. was hostile to non-whites and the U.S. was a hard life. Few were denied back then unless there was cause for denial.

    Immigration was a family decision back then. Corporations and universities were not involved.

    If we had been denied, we would have accepted our fate. The U.S. cannot accomodate all the billions who want to come here. Some will have to accept NO as an answer. We would have.

  • avivalasvegas

    Let’s put it this way, they are no more ordinary than the generation of your family that immigrated to the US.

  • David__D

    No, it’s a typical bigoted view. France, Spain, and Denmark are just a few examples where many bigots are blaming their problems on immigrants. If you’ll recall this also happened in Germany about 70 years ago.

    Yes there are Americans who believe this, but it has nothing to do with being American and everything to do with being ignorant.

  • KingKong

    See how the reserves are stashed away because the US government won’t revise the draconian tax laws.

  • BoomRoom

    Microsoft is doing far better since the change in leadership than it has done in a long while.

  • BoomRoom

    Ask any tech firm if they’d hire someone from an IIT or some even half-decent US college on pure merit and you’ll have your answer. Don’t be bitter about what you know so little.

  • FastForwardAfter

    IIT is not ranked very high when compared to even ordinary U.S. colleges.

  • FastForwardAfter

    No, I think they love the OPT program. What’s not to love. Of course they think there are not enough people willing to take the wages they want to offer.

    If they are not getting response, they should raise the wage offered, not turn to foreign labor.

  • FastForwardAfter

    I checked. They are not.

  • bwanamia

    Microsoft bought Nokia a while ago. Both companies are declining rapidly.

  • mass19

    So you think that the surveyed employers lied in their answers to the survey?

  • bwanamia

    Exactly!

  • kohn

    bwanamia, i am really sorry if i was of any uncivilised behaviour. i feel ashamed that the debate went to this level. it is just happened that i couldn’t resist replying to your ignorance. you are very expert in turning any debate to the “disgusting” way.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Not even convinced. Not one company wants to give up the U.S. market.

  • JackNJill

    Make it tougher to access talent and they will. Check any of the large software firms and they are moving more upstream work overseas now. Their centers of excellence are all moving abroad and that will continue.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Can your classmates qualify for the O-1 visa for extraordinary individuals?

    Didn’t think so. They are ordinary workers looking for an ordinary work visa.

  • FastForwardAfter

    An idle threat.

    Companies tried to run to those places, but they are running back to the U.S.

    The U.S. is the place to be. There is no threat of any company leaving this market.

  • Zigzagzagzig

    At this point all I can say is FastForwardAfter (shouldn’t you be Backward given your views) and bwanamia are essentially bitter folks who envy those who hope that universities and firms which turned them away for better qualified foreign-born candidates are forced into picking them by enacting protectionist, draconian laws. Here’s what will happen, firms will move to where the talent is if you deny them access the rightful way.

  • bwanamia

    As I said above, disgusting and uncivilized.

  • kohn

    i have to remind you that IIT grads lead Microsoft, MasterCard, Pepsico Inc, Nokia , and many more.. they invented hotmail. So don’t talk about IIT ..no single american institution can compete with IIT ..

  • kohn

    ohh jusus. don’t be so obsessed with silly details..move forward..

  • FastForwardAfter

    No.

    You wrote: “americans such as bwanamia who can’t do anything but complain, buy guns, shoot here and there. ”

    I want you to tell me where on this page bwanamia said any such thing.

  • kohn

    come on …this is unfair.. i need the visa so that after few years will bring my whole “tribe” into the bwanamia sleepy town and annoying his elitism. .

  • kohn

    open the link and read what’s the president of us said..

  • FastForwardAfter

    DENIED

  • FastForwardAfter

    Keep up Kohn, where in this blog?

  • kohn

    please bwanamia give me visa ..

  • OLARS

    believe me people like bwanamia enjoy such comments; ) you may see these posts stupid and not polite but it is obvious bwanamia and his like minded enjoy them.

  • bwanamia

    You don’t know what you’re talking about and you don’t have enough exposure to the US to know what’s insulting and what isn’t. Another reason why you shouldn’t get a visa.

  • avivalasvegas

    Then your responses make perfect sense. You envy those who come to the US without having to face the hardships you faced, because of the relative ease you believe an H1B applicant faces. It would also make sense that you discriminate against the “some people”…namely the Indians and the Chinese because you know that, outside of the work visas, they cannot claim refugee status or the green card lottery or wait 20 years before a family permanent residency sponsorship claim is processed, one of the 3 most likely routes your family chose.
    None of my classmates from my top 5 business school consider themselves slaves to corporate America. Those that received their H1B Visas are very happy earning salaries that are competitive and working in industries of their choosing. Not a single one works for Infosys, TCS or Cognizant (who hired only US nationals on campus incidentally) and I don’t believe any ever will. Your entire premise is flawed.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Pa-dum-pum. Fail.

  • kohn

    it is the “typical same mentality ” that led to the tragic event last week. it is in bwanamia’s blood. just few more argument to bring his hidden thoughts to the surface. poor america if your next leaders in this quality..

  • kohn

    “native population ” hahaha… if i were you i’ll never ever mention the word “native” … it is an insulting word in your culture..

  • avivalasvegas

    What other guy? And what does religious belief/ faith have to do with the right to a work visa?

  • FastForwardAfter

    I am an immigrant born outside the U.S. Like Serge Brin I came on a regular immigrant visa, not owned by any corporation. It took many years of waiting and separation from one parent.

    The H-1B visa is owned by the corporation, similar to the days of slavery. Corporations should have no impact on immigration.

    Anyone can still apply to come to the U.S. outside of the corrupt indentured work visa route. It is just that some people will have to take “NO” for an answer. Everyone of the billions from the rest of the world who wants to come cannot expect to be accommodated.

    Also, education level should just be one small part of the decisionmaking criteria.

  • bwanamia

    “Low IQ Americans such as bwanamia” This is another reason we don’t want you. When we say no you resort to insults.You think doing well at an IIT qualifies you to look down on the native population of the US. By the way, I rarely meet foreigners in a work context, except for a few Western Europeans, who don’t strike as disgusting and uncivilized.

  • bwanamia

    If we Americans are so narrow-minded and ignorant, then why do you so desperately want to come here? It doesn’t make sense. At least I’m smart enough not to go where I’m not wanted. So I don’t.

  • bwanamia

    Sergey and the other guy are Jews. Perhaps you’d like us to adopt a Jews only policy?

  • kohn

    theguardian [dot] com/us-news/2014/nov/20/obama-plan-shield-five-million-undocumented-migrants-deportation-speech

  • avivalasvegas

    Sergey was born in 1973 – he could not have immigrated to the US in 1978 on H1B, when he was 5 years old, because the H1B program did not exist till 1990. If Sergey’s family wanted to immigrate to the US today, what options do you believe are available to them? You seem to think that immigration into the US is a simple matter of just wanting to cross a pond or a border and leap into America’s welcoming embrace? It’s not. Not by a long shot.
    The H1B program is the 21st century’s primary immigration pipeline, where applicants can spend up to 15 backlogged years waiting to become permanent residents of the US. You’re dancing around the fact that you are anti-immigration and using the H1B/ OPT to mince your words. Ironic, given that. unless you are native American, you too are a descendent of an immigrant who faced discrimination and hardship while adhering to the immigration program of their time. To me, it makes no difference if its called H1B or signing a name in a register at the port of disembarkation called Ellis island.

  • OLARS

    why it is a stupid?!! it is a rare talent and tons of people would love to have it in or out. bwanamia apparently likes it in.

  • FastForwardAfter

    WHere did bwanamia mention anything about buying guns and shooting? Or is that in your mind?

    Perhaps you believe that foreign students do not destroy things.

    9/11 hijackers and the Times Square bombers came here on F-1 visas. Should we use them as a stereotype of all foreign students? Hmmmm?

    Also, ‘America’ does not translate to ‘nation of immigrants’. Nowhere is that an official description.

  • FastForwardAfter

    What a stupid thing to say.

  • OLARS

    NO, talent is not a myth, I have a big one that can fit in you perfectly.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Sergey was NOT on a work visa! He was 5 years old and raised in the U.S. If H-1B or OPT visa was never introduced, it would not affect Serge Brin.
    Not even one fortune 500 company was created by a person on a H-1B work visa!

    The H-1b/L-1/OPT work programs can be scrapped without affecting innovation.

    Wrap your head around that fact so you will begin to understand how unnecessary work visas are!

    By the way, YOU were the one starting with the “If I were you”. I see you don’t like your own term mirrowed back at you.

  • kohn

    opposing immigration from a country that its name is “nation of immigrants” is only sign of fear and weakness, particularly from low IQ americans such as bwanamia who can’t do anything but complain, buy guns, shoot here and there. this is his culture. that is now threatened by civilized coming people.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Where did bwanamia say he/she was afraid? That perception is in your twisted arrogant mind.

    Much of America was built on slavery. Tha doesnot mean that we should continue slavery.

  • kohn

    no offensive here, it is just the fact. bwanamia reminds me of the narrow mind american mentality and ignorance. Now he/she is shouting against civilized, talented foreign students because he/she scared they come and make him look stupid. why the hell he/she opposes the immigration? at the end the whole US is a 200 years imported country.

  • avivalasvegas

    It’s up to the employer to decide who they want to hire. Fortunately for those who are deserving, many don’t care about where they were born. Rather, what they can do. And top tier MBAs have proven that they can do a lot long before they gain admission to the B school of their choosing.

  • avivalasvegas

    You’re not me. And you don’t have a clue.
    You think there are blonde haired blue eyed all American beef fed lads working at Microsoft? What about Google? You think Sergey was born in good ol’ ‘Merica!!? Infact, here’s something to silence your ignorance – 40% of the Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or their immediate offspring (Forbes). Companies like Tesla, Intel, Ebay …the list goes on.

    Again, you’re not me. And you don’t have a clue.

  • FOOK-NZK

    yes, it is not an argument, but I like it. I personally think (sorry) you are an idiot.

  • avivalasvegas

    Would you consider an MBA in Africa? Russia? if you knew that there was no potential for a career or influence in those markets?
    I think the very point of the top tier MBA degree is to take ulra high potential individuals, like Shekhar, train them and route them to a career path of their choosing, regardless of geography and immigration, at market competitive rates. This is not the promise of the degree, this is the promise of America, one that it has delivered on till very recently. Who are you to challenge the very core of the American dream? Did your forefathers not immigrate to the US?
    Your argument that the OPT discriminates against citizens is utterly baseless and flawed. Many of my international classmates make comparable wages to their US national counterparts, a fact that is supported by published data in P&Q’s article. You could make the argument that US citizens only deserve those jobs, not the best available talent, and that would be an argument against progress. Ultimately, I believe it is only progress that can change your thinking.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Can you name any of these common software products that were innovated by the Indians and Chinese?

    H-1B workers are hired to do as they are told with tools that already exist, not to innovate new ideas.

    From all evidence, it is the U.S. worker that has to train the Indian and Chinese H-1B worker to take his or her job. If worker A is training worker B, who is the untrained?

    If I were you, I would pay attention and face reality.

  • bwanamia

    Employers also prefer to hire tall people who played lots of sports. So what? Calling me a bigot is not an argument.

  • avivalasvegas

    You did miss the salary data – it is located in a sister article also released this week on P&Q.
    If I were you, I’d tread cautiously when painting such broad strokes on nationalities here. Immigrants, like the Indians and the Chinese, built much of the software and hardware that you use in your daily life today. Sure, there are Indian and Chinese “firms” that are gaming the system, just like US firms have gamed countless systems countless times over, and they too deserve to be restricted. But don’t try taking away much of the 21st century’s progress from them. You’ll come across even more limited an individual than you already have.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Norm Matloff:
    By the way, the article contains a curious bit of cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, it says that “U.S. MBA programs have admitted larger and larger numbers of students from outside the U.S. to increase diversity and bring more of a global mindset into the classroom,”

    but on the other hand notes that “Many of the companies that refuse to consider foreign-born MBAs…[cite] cultural differences.”

    Maybe the globalist view being promoted by the schools don’t jibe with business goals?

  • FastForwardAfter

    Indians and Chinese have learned how to game the system. That is why.

  • FastForwardAfter

    I must have missed the salary data. Can you show me where there is any salary data in this article?

    THe article speaks only about the immigration benefit ‘deserved’ by MBA students. A government benefit the university has no right to offer as a reward for graduation from their program.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Pay attention, don’t ban international students, just get rid of the OPT/CPT programs that discriminate against citizens. That will show if the MBA degree can stand on it’s own value.

    Do you think the MBA has an intrinsic value without the immigration benefit of OPT/CPT and H-1B?

    If it does, then this article is moot. Right?

    Would fewer international students apply if they knew that there was no job in the U.S. after? Like they agreed to in their F-1 application?

  • avivalasvegas

    That’s a great recipe for success Fastforward. Ban international students to reduce spots so the school loses profitability and eventually folds. What next? Bring back lynching and expand it to all folks from different backgrounds to “cleanse” the homeland?

  • avivalasvegas

    Cheap? Did you not look at the data? Are you claiming that the salary data in the H1B article is wrong and do you have credible data that shows that H1B seeking Top Tier MBA grads make uncompetitive wages when compared to their US counterparts?

  • FastForwardAfter

    Survey employers that use the OPT and you will get such answers. The OPT is a program that allows employers to bypass citizens and hire foreign students without the cost of unemployment insurance and such. Why would you be surprised that they crave more.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Interesting that you are looking down on the citizens of the country you crave to become a citizen of. Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance.

  • FastForwardAfter

    You are probably wondering how it is possible the U.S. got so great without the H-1B visa program that started in 1990.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Top notch MBA programs do not guarantee success. Enron and many other companies was loaded with nothing but MBAs who either ran it into the ground or did not see disaster in the books.

    The last wall street collapse was purely by ivy league MBAs with lots of credentials and arrogance and no common sense. More of these same MBAs are not needed.

    Most of the innovation in the U.S. comes from people without an MBA.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Employers love the cheap OPT labor provided by these universities. Employers do not have to pay SS and unemployment benefits for students on OPT. THey also do not have to pay competitive salaries, since the OPT is a reward in itself.

    It is a scam and will collapse on itself, like most scams do.

  • FastForwardAfter

    Ivy league schools boast that they reject U.S. candidates with perfect SAT scores.

    I do not simpathize with anyone who lied on a form and is then surprised that he might have to abide by that statement to leave after the program.

    Universities have no business in immigration decisions. If the U.S. population does not need all the seats available in a university, then the university should reduce the number of spots, not offer immigration benefits to make up for the lack of demand for their services.

  • FastForwardAfter

    You swore that you would return on the F-1 student visa form, now you are upset that your lie might not work.

  • FastForwardAfter

    I see what is happenning. Colleges are becoming profit motivated. They have raised tuition to the point where it is not financially worth it. Colleges had to offer a new incentive. A chance to gain legal residency to the U.S. for foreign students. Enter OPT and H-1B as the reward for the tuition. Why is the education not enough? Why can’t an MBA stand on it’s own as the only reward?

    To receive the F-1 student visa, did not the student swear on the visa form that he or she intended to return after completing the program?

    Colleges should not be in the immigration business. If the MBA degree is useless without immigration benefits, that MBA program is useless.

  • avivalasvegas

    Employers trust these schools, their standards, criteria and their students. Not everyone is a bigot bwanamia

  • kohn

    he/she is a typical american mentality. thanks god i went to an international school.

  • JackNJill

    At this point I’m going to assume you are either ill-informed and ignorant of how the economies work or a troll.

  • bwanamia

    The schools can admit anyone they want. That’s no reason to hire their foreign born graduates.

  • bwanamia

    100 may be high. Let’s say 10. Very few people anywhere are so remarkably talented that they would be indispensable. At the moment I don’t see a need to bring in any of the 200,000 H1B applicants.

  • bwanamia

    I agree. It would be less random simply to shut down the H1B program entirely, which is what I would like to see happen along with a 50 year moratorium on new immigration of any kind to the US.

  • Esuric

    There isn’t a single factual statement in your idiotic rant. Not one. Every single employer survey shows a shortage of quality managers, engineers, and individuals with just general quantitative ability. Your “we only need 100 foreigners a year comment” is so unbelievably inaccurate that I am lost for words. Perhaps the only more inane and absurd comment is the accusation that “advocates of expanding the H1B program betray their fellow citizens.”

    Honestly I have never read anything so incorrect in my life.

  • avivalasvegas

    From what I am seeing, the Indians and the Chinese comprise a large % of the applicant pool, followed closely by South Americans.
    I agree with you – the Mexican pseudo slave labor trade is a short term win for America. The long term benefits are questionable though.

  • km80

    The value add from using cheap illegal immigrants to reduce costs by keeping min. wages low is far greater than the value brought in using MBAs. That is the reason this problem is unaddressed. What is the incentive for a company to give an MBA on the H1b a GC? Nothing, especially if they can go the next big campus and hire another international on H1b or a Us citizen. Also, only Indians (and Chinese) have to wait around 10 years to get their GCs, it’s not applicable to other nationalities

  • JackNJill

    Uncalled for, especially in the light of recent events. Let’s keep the discussion intelligent.

  • ivyealie

    Not just H1b-look at the wait time for green cards… it takes 10 yrs for Ivy league MBA’s ( from china or India ) to get a green card in the US
    Talent is leaving – Goto London or Toronto or Singapore- Full of ivy league MBA;s who are leaving the US for London/Toronto/Singapore who are welcoming them

  • tende

    do you have gun?

  • JackNJill

    I think your understanding of the value of a top notch MBA is flawed, perhaps you should try experiencing it for yourself. No sensible economist will agree to your rationale of ‘reserving, jobs, no economy or civilization has prospered from staying locked down. The goal of American immigration should be towards the American people and economy and nobody is disputing that, all we are saying is that this random draw of lottery is not the best way to go about it and that more intelligent ways are present to ensure that. Also you do realize American firms can’t survive in today’s day and age just on American economy/consumption, if you need the global markets, you have to play by global norms.

  • avivalasvegas

    It would appear that 35% of US born candidates are not making it into their country’s top programs. Is your argument that the filtration mechanisms used by these established top tier US institutions are not good enough? Or that the US economy doesn’t deserve the students who meet that criteria?
    If memory serves, no US school was influenced in any way by any foreign entity when it created its admissions criteria. That, to me, means that US applicant pool is not fully catering to the demands being placed on it.

    I sympathize with any legal H1B immigrant simply because they pay taxes, follow US immigration law to the letter and accomplish what most Americans simply cannot. Still they wait for a decade in a queue before attaining permanent residency.

    Your protectionist attitude would appear to betray us more than anything Piemonte has said. Why not go pester a politician to address the issues that non tax paying, illegal immigrants are creating instead? I can see some merit to that.

  • k_nonymous

    What is the basis for your assertion that “perhaps 100 people/year” is what is needed? Do you have any data to support that claim that of the 200,000+ H1-B applicants, only about 100 are needed, and that there are sufficient adequately-qualified American MBAs to fill the existing available positions?

  • bwanamia

    The goal of American economic and immigration policy is to promote the interests of American citizens. You people claim that H1Bs and other foreign borns increase the pool of available talent, I think the MBA is no more than a credential that attests neither superior talent nor superior training. You add nothing except your hunger for opportunities that should be reserved for Americans.

  • bwanamia

    Talent is a myth. The MBA is a credential. As I said above, 100 people/year is about all we need.

  • Hungryhungryhippo

    You sound almost scared that the local talent can’t compete with the international talent pool. That’s crazy. Every intelligently added H1B is actually a significant economic boon to the US economy because of the value it adds and creates. The American middle class will actually benefit from the US adding greater talent pool whether American or foreign born.

  • FEDERAL-Econ

    everywhere every time, when an advanced economy country start tighten the immigration, it is a very clear sign of economic struggle. Always prosperity requires fuels of talents and for the aging country, immigration is an unavoidable solution. So, this is not a good sign about american economy.

  • bwanamia

    Every H1B is a job lost to the collapsing American middle class. People like Piemonte who advocate expansion of the H1B program betray their fellow citizens. Bruner says that “our country is forgoing excellent talent from outside.” Nonsense. The truth is that the H1B program suppresses the development and cultivation of domestic talent. Only in a few very rare cases, perhaps 100 people/year at most, is “excellent talent” so valuable that a visa should be granted.